how do I know which CMS will work for me?

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Suzanne
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how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Suzanne »

Hi. A little background... We have always used Frontpage to edit our site, since the 90's. The site started out as a small fan site but has grown and now has thousands of pages. I am not a qualified web site developer with a computer background. I just sort of fell into it. I know basic HTML and not much else.

We use Frontpage because it's easy to use and keeps the links working right. But we would like to get rid of it and make a more user-friendly site, so that people who work on my site don't have to have Frontpage just to add some content. (We would like to still be able to use Frontpage for design purposes if possible, but it's not essential)

I would like to get a CMS, but I know very little about them. I tried a couple that had demos on their sites, but when I tried them, they were sort of beyond me. I didn't really understand the modules and all that stuff. I think Drupal was one I tried...

We have no money. The site has no budget. We run on volunteer work only. Most of the people who work on my site are writers, not computer tech people. My web host also hates Frontpage and would like it if we could dump it. Lately, my site has been very slow, too, and we think it might be a Frontpage thing. It suddenly takes a really long time to save a page. (This has happened before, but we can't seem to fix it this time)

So my question would be, is there a CMS that is cheap or free, and super easy to set up and use, where I could use my site's basic design, with our humongous site, on our Unix server? Would CMS Made Simple work for my site (or if not, do you know of another one you can suggest)?

Thanks! I hope I posted this in the right folder...I wasn't really sure....Please help because I'm desperate! :)

Suzanne
Duketown

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Duketown »

Desperate Suzanne,

Thanks for giving a bit of history. I don't think that you have come to a place that has many Frontpage lovers, so welcome.
What I, and maybe others, would like to know is: could you mention a few things that the site contains? I take it some news, blog, forum? Can you insert a link to the site?

Duketown
Mieszko
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Mieszko »

Suzanne,
CMSms is a system that's easy to handle and to learn. But still it's very powerful. So I assume you're in the right place. To give further advice it would be helpful to know what kind of page you have.
Cheers.... M.
Suzanne
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Suzanne »

Well, I did post a link, but apparently it was edited out...? Is it against the rules to post links here?

It's The TV MegaSite. tv megasite dot net or dot com

You can find it in Google if the above gets edited out...

It's all about TV.

Thanks!

Suzanne
Mieszko
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Mieszko »

Respect! Maintaining these thousands of site with Frontpage is a lot of work.

Well, if you chose to use CMSms....
Fist thing to do is get it installed.
Then think of the structure of you site. What content do you want to put where. Create a basic site structure. Fill it with some content.

Chose a template for your site. You can find some here:
http://themes.cmsmadesimple.org/Downloa ... hemes.html.
Of course you can turn your own template into a CMSms template as well.... but to begin with a ready-made one is not such a bad idea.

And then work through it all until your page suits you.

It is not like working with Frontpage, so you'll have to get used to basic html/css at least ( not necessary but it helps a lot).

Maybe this site can help you to get started:
http://www.icms.info/
Even though it's written for the 1.6xx series of CMSms most of it is still up to date. Just the look is a bit different nowadays.

Cheers and good luck.
M.

Come back here if you need specific help.
faglork

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by faglork »

Hi!

As of now, CMSMS is not very scalable, IMO. Maintaining thousands of pages in CMSMS will be very tedious ....
I am running several sites with about 3-400 pages each, and I would not recommend CMSMS for > 1k pages.

Reasons:

- when you add a new page, the method used to select the appropriate node in the tree structure is a simple list to chose from. Imagine to scroll through a list of 2000 pages to select the correct point in the page hierarchy ...

- add to this that said list uses the page TITLE and not the MENU text. This can already be confusing in small sites, in large sites it becomes a major headache (IMO).

- almost the same applies to inserting internal links. It is ok up to several hundred pages, but above it is almost impossible. It is done through a sort of fold-out menu, which will soon use your whole screen. In deep sites, the only way to access the lower hierarchy pages is to scroll with the down/right buttons while simultaneously moving the mouse pointer through the fold-out structure. This can turn into a nightmare ... alternative: buy a 72" monitor (just kidding).

- as of now, editors who are restricted to sub-trees cannot move their pages after they added them, so everytime a restricted editor adds a page, an admin has to jump in and sort the pages.

- there is no thing like a "media repository" which can handle large amounts of images. The TinyMCE filepicker does not really support restricted editors: as soon as you switch the restrictions on, even the admin can't enter other structures than his own.

- no easy way to put an editor in charge of a whole sub-tree. If you want to do that, you have to manually change ownership of ALL pages down the hierarchy. Big fun.

- re-arranging the tree structure with the nifty ajax application won't work with such large structures, so you have to do it manually, click for cklick.

- since Frontpage spits out static pages, you probably run the site on a low-power server, since static pages don't need much ressources. If you have a HUGE number of visitors per day, you may run into memory problems.

I really *love* CMSMS and I still think it is a godsend, but I would hesitate to run a really big site with it.

PS: If anyone has some good ideas to solve the above issues, I'd be most grateful.

Cheers,
Alex
calguy1000
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by calguy1000 »

I am running several sites with about 3-400 pages each, and I would not recommend CMSMS for > 1k pages.
From the about page:
CMS Made Simple™ is an open source ( GPL) package first released in July 2004. Its built using PHP that provides website developers with a simple, easy to use utility to allow building small-ish (dozens to hundreds of pages), semi-static websites.
I would not even TRY to put 1k+ pages into CMSMS. It's not designed for it, and we have no intention to really focus on it. As you said, there are alot of design things that would have to be changed.

Besides, it is my belief and experience that in 99% of the cases where people think they need thousands of pages, they are usually displaying specialized data (for example Products, or a directory site, or some other type of data that is better suited to a module specially suited for that type of data. (i.e: I've seen sites using the Products module with thousands of products).
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Suzanne
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Suzanne »

Thanks, you guys. I appreciate the help.

Please let me know if you can recommend any other CMS that would be easy to set up and can handle many pages.

I'm not a coder or anything so I need something really super simple to set up and use.

Thanks!!
jmcgin51
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by jmcgin51 »

Suzanne,

You're not likely to find many other recommendations here, since this site is specifically about CMSMS. If you're looking for a CMS that is simple to install and to use, CMSMS fits the bill perfectly.

As for your thousands of pages - can you explain a bit more about WHY you have thousands of pages? For example, in FrontPage (and I can't even imagine managing a FP site with more than about 10 pages), you would have a separate page for each TV show, or for each actor/actress, etc. But in CMSMS, you could have a module such as Products or Cataloger or Company Directory set up so that each TV show/actor/actress is a "product" or "catalog item" or "company". This means that your entire site might have just a few true "pages", but the same content that you have on your current site.

CMSMS is extremely flexible; you will have a learning curve to move from FrontPage, but I think it will be worth the effort...

With all that said, you'll never really know if CMSMS (or any other CMS) can do what you want until you try it! You don't have to port your entire site over, just port a few bits and pieces, enough to see how it works and whether you like it.
faglork

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by faglork »

jmcgin51 wrote: As for your thousands of pages - can you explain a bit more about WHY you have thousands of pages?
Just have a look:
http://tvmegasite.net

Won't work ...
Alex
jmcgin51
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by jmcgin51 »

I looked at the site already. Please elaborate on why you think CMSMS won't work. Perhaps I'm missing something...
Suzanne
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Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by Suzanne »

jmcgin51 wrote:Suzanne,

You're not likely to find many other recommendations here, since this site is specifically about CMSMS. If you're looking for a CMS that is simple to install and to use, CMSMS fits the bill perfectly.

As for your thousands of pages - can you explain a bit more about WHY you have thousands of pages? For example, in FrontPage (and I can't even imagine managing a FP site with more than about 10 pages), you would have a separate page for each TV show, or for each actor/actress, etc. But in CMSMS, you could have a module such as Products or Cataloger or Company Directory set up so that each TV show/actor/actress is a "product" or "catalog item" or "company". This means that your entire site might have just a few true "pages", but the same content that you have on your current site.

CMSMS is extremely flexible; you will have a learning curve to move from FrontPage, but I think it will be worth the effort...

With all that said, you'll never really know if CMSMS (or any other CMS) can do what you want until you try it! You don't have to port your entire site over, just port a few bits and pieces, enough to see how it works and whether you like it.
Sounds like you are quite prejudiced against Frontpage. I've run my site on it for years just fine.
I was having some slowness problems recently, but moving some of the older archived pages into subwebs has solved that problem.

Everyone else is saying that there is no way CMSMS will work with such a large site. I don't want to bother to try it and learn it just to have it not work. That would not make much sense.

The main reasons I am looking for a CMS instead of Frontpage is that Microsoft no longer makes the program, and it's fairly expensive anyway, and so it its replacement, Web Expression. That means that every time we want to add content, one of us that knows Frontpage has to put it up. If I have a CMS then multiple users could have access to the site without having to know or learn or buy Frontpage.

As to why we have thousands of pages...my site has been around since the mid-90's and we cover about 60 shows as well as TV in general. The daytime pages are very popular, and each daytime show has daily transcripts, recaps and detailed summaries (dating back to 2000). That's on top of all the other content that all our shows have, such as puzzles, trivia quizzes, character descriptions, spoilers, news, links, etc. Each of these things has its own page. Each show has its own folder. Each links page, article, interview, puzzle, recap, etc. has its own page and subpages.

I have seen very simple types of CMS's when I used to host some of my site in places like Geocities, not to mention my own blog in Blogger. I was hoping to use something like that but....not sure if I can find something that will work now from what you guys are saying. I don't really understand what a module is or how to set up a CMS.

The main problem with such a large site is it takes forever to put a new design on all those pages. i was hoping to set up some kind of template in a CMS and then upload the content of the pages to some kind of template or framework, to make it much easier than using Frontpage...not just for old but new content.

Hope that makes sense...
faglork

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by faglork »

Hi Suzanne,
Suzanne wrote: The main reasons I am looking for a CMS instead of Frontpage is that Microsoft no longer makes the program, and it's fairly expensive anyway, and so it its replacement, Web Expression.
Web Expression is really cheap, about 170 Euro for the PRO Version.
Suzanne wrote: The main problem with such a large site is it takes forever to put a new design on all those pages.
This is not a size problem. The problem is Frontpage. If Frontpage would generate a clean structured page code, all you would have to do were to change the CSS files, and all your pages would have a new design *instantly*. Alas, in most cases, Frontpage writes abominable code which prevents just that.
Suzanne wrote:i was hoping to set up some kind of template in a CMS and then upload the content of the pages to some kind of template or framework, to make it much easier than using Frontpage...not just for old but new content.
It won't work this way. I have converted several Frontpage-driven websites (size about 300 pages) to CMSMS, and it is a *huge* task just to clean the HTML code so that you can re-use the content without hassles. With thousands of pages, forget it. It simply takes too much work. Keep in mind that this is not a CMSMS problem, you have that with all CMSes on the market.

You *could* try to run HTML Tidy in batch process:
http://www.chami.com/html-kit/faq/pages ... ocess.html
but I doubt whether it can handle so much data flawlessly ...

There is another point, and that also applies to *all* CMS systems: running a website with several thousand pages is not possible on a common shared server - you will instantly run into memory problems. You need a dedicated server for that, and it will still be a taunting task.

You can do all that with Frontpage because FP spits out STATIC pages, which produce almost no server load at all.

So, if budget is low, IMO your best bet would be to try Microsoft Expression Web (if Expression Web fits your specs) and import the Frontpage website:
http://www.dotnetcurry.com/ShowArticle.aspx?ID=34

To sum it up: Turning thousands of static pages into a full-blown CMS-driven site is a *huge* task, regardless of the system you use. If you simply need a replacement for Frontpage, Expression Web seem to be a solution.

Cheers,
Alex
faglork

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by faglork »

Suzanne wrote:...not just for old but new content.
You *could* leave the site "as is" and label it "archive" and start a whole new website, where you cross-reference the pages. I have done that with my online newspaper, which had about 12.000 pages and proved to be too much work to import it into the new system.

You still have to find a CMS which will support 5k+ pages, since the site will grow to that size ...

hth,
Alex
faglork

Re: how do I know which CMS will work for me?

Post by faglork »

jmcgin51 wrote:I looked at the site already. Please elaborate on why you think CMSMS won't work. Perhaps I'm missing something...
I already explained, as did Calguy ... what part of that do you not understand?

Cheers,
Alex
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