CMSMS ROCKS!

General project discussion. NOT for help questions.
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jpatti
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CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by jpatti »

About a year ago, I read about Joomla.  Downloaded it, learned it, got frustrated repeatedly.  Everyone said Joomla was wonderful, that it was the easiest CMS.  Well, I've been building web sites for over 10 years and don't think I'm stupid, but Joomla drove me crazy.

The architecture was so convoluted, that I first tried to ignore it.  I went crazy downloading extensions with bad descriptions over and over and finding they didn't do what I needed.  But besides the days upon days spent messing with extensions, there were two larger annoyances.

First, going nuts with writing templates, modules and components... spending hours digging through documentation to do something I could do outside of Joomla in ten minutes with regular old HTML, CSS, JavaScript or PHP.  Once, I literally spent over a week trying to write a form with plain old fields that wrote to a table I defined.  That's all.  Something that'd take maybe a half hour outside of Joomla, maybe an hour if I was being picky about the styles.

And the second major annoyance was trying to train an end user on the backend... writing gobs of documentation about what they should do, what they shouldn't do, and conducting a 6-hour training, and finding they just call me all the time cause it's too confusing for them.  And honestly, it confuses me... if I haven't done a task in Joomla lately, takes all sorts of tiem poking about to figure it out again.

So... last week, I had a meeting with a nonprofit that wants to manage their own web site.  And after a year with Joomla, I basically... well, either I found something better, or I just wasn't taking the job unless they were going to be patient enough to let me write my own CMS. 

I Googled, I read reviews.  I knew my criteria:

1. TinyMCE, with some sort of addition for users to add pages and sections and not much else - cause I like how you can configure TinyMCE and everyone understands it as soon as they look at it.

2. an easy way to write templates - I should be able to take an HTML file and CSS file I wrote myself and stick it in the CMS in 10-15 minutes, tops.

3. A simple way to write my own code without banging my head against someone else's way of thinking.  Even a very logical architecture doesn't mean it will fit *me* - I don't want to think like someone else, but like myself.

In my searching, I found CMSMS.  I read all the documentation.  And then spent 3-4 hours reading the forums.  And it sounded like I found my CMS.

So yesterday, I downlaoded it, installed it and read through the sample data.  This is MORE than everything I ever wanted in a CMS, all sorts of ltitle annoyances I didn't list were addressed in the sample data.

I have told my husband, I am now officially in love with Ted.  ;)

Seriously, when I get the deposit for this job, there's a donation coming your way.  And if I keep liking it like this, for every job from here on out.

CMSMS ROCKS!  WOOHOO!
jpatti
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by jpatti »

Well, after a week and half playing with it, I need to revoke some of my enthusiasm over the following problems.


Problem #1 - Absolutely no documentation for designers.  Oh, I *thought* there was when I wrote the above post, I'd gone through all the demos in the installed data and saw theme demos.  But when I actually went to the dcoumentation page: http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php/Designers - there is NOTHING for designers except themes to download. 

Theme downloads are not *for* designers; themes are for people who can't or don't want to design.  Themes are *made* by designers.  How about some documentation?  Not even the little bit of "You need to write a template, a stylesheet and a menu template" - no you have to poke around to find out, and to figure out the templates and stylesheets are in the database, and menu templates in files. 


Problem #2 - After figuring out what I have to do for design - well, my mind just boggled.  No, really, I have to use a web form to write a template and the stylesheet cause they exist in the database? 

Doesn't *every* programmer out there have their favorite development environment?  I've been a participant as well as a bystander to these "holy war" arguments for over a decade, and NEVER have I heard someone say their favorite development environment was a TEXTAREA!  Nothing like having to wait for a website to reload every time you hit save!

EditArea does not make up for this - until all web sites can save a form as quickly as I can save a file on my PC, it's a moot point.  And even if it had the speed, EditArea is not Textpad (for me) and it's not TSE (for hubby) and it's not every developer in the world with their own preference for the development environment they  are accustomed to.  It's not "simple" to say... you can't use what you want to write HTML and CSS.

Why can't template and stylesheets be just plain old files?  At least during development, if they need to be in the durned database for some reason I am not getting, there ought to be a "development" mode where you can turn that off and edit the files directly for later import to the database.  It's just intolerable to use a web form for writing sites from scratch.



Problem #3 - I haven't decided if I like Smarty yet or not.  We don't work in a way that would make Smarty useful for us generally, so have never used it.  So thus far, it's just an annoyance that it's there.  We'll see if I wind up feeling differently after I use it a while. 

However, I *don't* like that I spent hours reading the CMSMS site and never ran across the idea that to use this product, I needed to know Smarty.  I went through the demos, even installing the thing and reading all the sample content, and never got the idea that knowing HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP and SQL was not going to be sufficient to use a "simple" CMS.  I think that should be clear somewhere upfront before I even downloaded the thing.


So far, I still like it, but my enthusiasm is somewhat tempered after a week and a half.  We'll see where it is in a month as I build applications in this thing... I am expecting that to go much easier than the look-and-feel business did. 
tyman00
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by tyman00 »

#1 - We know that the documentation isn't the strongest at the moment and have openly admitted it. We are working on making some changes, but many of the themes should be a great example for you. Take a look a the default themes and themes available for download, including the frameworks. There is a lot of good examples out there, you just have to look at how they do it in the source.

It is a bit out dated (also working on that) but you could watch the video linked to on #3 here: http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php ... _Tutorials

You can also check out YouTube and other sites, I have come across a few decent tutorials for what you are discussing.

It's not perfect, but it is there.

#2 - Check out the TemplateExternalizer module it will do exactly what you are looking for. It is one of the first modules that I install. In reality the current system is a great setup, especially with a module like TE to extend that functionality.

#3 - At first you may not see the need for Smarty, but when you start to customize templates and extend modules beyond basic functionality you will come to like it very much. Apart from the default tags I am not sure how it would be so annoying.

You aren't required to know Smarty to use this product, you only need it if you want to extend CMSMS beyond it's standard/default usage. Then you will appreciate it's simplicity.


All of the information you are commenting about is available. While it might not all be in one centralized location like you would hope (we are working on that) it is out there. Remember that you can't expect to be come an expert overnight or in a short period of time. It takes time and trial and error to learn the system. None of us became pros with CMSMS like that. We put in due diligence and took the time to learn and try. That is the case with any system or software out there. This system just requires less effort to learn in my opinion.


Finally, you can check out the book that is available from Packt Publishing. I haven't had a chance to check it out myself but from the sounds of it, it sounds like it would be a good start for someone in your position and is fairly reasonable in price.
If all else fails, use a bigger hammer.
M@rtijn wrote: This is a community. This means that we work together and have the same goal (a beautiful CMS), not that we try to put people down and make their (voluntary) job as difficult as can be.
faglork

Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by faglork »

Well, I was almost in the same dilemma - I needed a CMS which was easy to setup, AND easy for end users to work with. I had installed almost all available CMSes, and CMSMS was the only one which stayed. It took me about half an hour to have my first site up and running, since it was so goldarn easy. It is pretty much self-explaining (my opinion), for the rest, searching the forum is *really* helpful. I agree on the documentation issue, but the forum really eases that.

I have developed 2 basic templates (2/3 columns) which I use all the time - styling is done via CSS, no need to change the templates at all (in 90% of all cases).

As to the stylesheets: I still prefer a simple external stylesheet, and use the Web Developer Bar/Firebug for Firefox as main developing platform.

And I heartily agree: CMSMS ROCKS!

Cheers,
Alex
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kermit
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by kermit »

One of CMS Made Simple's strengths is how easy it is to create page templates for it, based on designs you have cooked-up in whatever application or editor you choose, whether it be a plain text editor like vi or Notepad++ or a WYSIWYG application like Dreamweaver.

Smarty is an integral part of CMS Made Simple, but you don't need to know anything about Smarty to build web sites with CMSMS - you can just accept the fact that certain things inside {braces} do certain things: {title} outputs the current page's title, {content} outputs the page's content block, {menu} in its most basic form outputs a plain menu in UL form that you can easily style with CSS, {cms_module module='whatever'} loads a module, etc. However, that said, a little Smarty know-how can go a long way.

___

You do NOT have to write your page templates and CSS in the textarea fields! OMG! ??? Create your design, offline, using "dummy data" where the {tags} would go. When you've finished and tested the design, replace the dummy data with their respective {tags}, fix any file references (images, scripts, etc) to reflect their locations on the server, and then simply copy-n-paste the template and CSS into CMSMS and upload the necessary supporting files/scripts.

When you get to this point, there shouldn't be that much editing to do; and if there is something major that has you looking at the screen crosseyed, just copy it out of textarea field and paste it into your offline editor for a 'better look', then paste it back when you're done. I might do that once, maybe twice, on a project, but no big deal -- certainly not enough to make me wish for actual files on the server to edit instead.

I was a little skeptical at first, about having everything in the database, but I like it that way now: ease of backing up, ease of transferring sites, ease of making most edits and changes (even to templates and css) as only a browser is needed (meaning no FTP, no IDE, no specialized editor, etc.. and no lugging a laptop around, that has all those thing, everywhere I go), and the browser is gonna be open anyway when I'm working on a site for previewing the frontend and accessing other admin functions in the backend. Thank goodness for tabbed browsing.

___

The wiki appears to be going through some sort of a makeover or reorganization, but the documentation for designers can be found here: http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php ... d/Designer
Last edited by kermit on Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr.CSS
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by Dr.CSS »

Ok so maybe the label "For Designers" is not true but a designer just makes it look good, it sounds like you are looking for the 'builders' section. The only problem I see with that is that it takes nothing more than whatever you would normally build in, well I should qualify that with I came from a "building it in notepad background" I've never used dreamweaver, and any other wysiwyg type builder I've used sucked, maybe because I've always been hands on, actually the best wysiwyg builder for my money is Firefox with the Web Developers addon, click the edit css and your good to go, just upload any images you may need ahead of time...

I can convert a free OS template in about an hour if it was built correctly, did one today actually, if you go to show off section and sort the 'started by' and look for DrCSS starting at page 13 you will see when and where I started converting free templates for use in cmsms, one post started on the 16th and ended on the 18th, in that 2 day stretch I did 10 and most likely more...

http://forum.cmsmadesimple.org/index.ph ... 705.0.html

With a fast server I've never noticed a problem with using the built in template/style sheet "forms", if I have a particular problem such as trying to figure out where I can add another div or something like that I copy paste it into PSPad editor find what I need do what is needed and copy it back hit submit and I'm good to go, this includes using PSPad to clean up css.
If you want to build it in something else go ahead and once you are done you can just copy/paste what you have into a new template and new style sheet, upload your images where you want, I recommend uploads/"themefolder" so content editors don't use them in content...

A lot of what I do is get an image from a designer, look at how it's structured, layout, menu etc. then look at the default templates, I have a 1.5.4 install which is just before the the big switch to image heavy default themes and I have cleaned all the comments out of the templates and style sheets and these are what I use as a base for a majority of my builds...

I never knew any smarty till way later in my use of this system, and I'm really starting to get the hang of it, sort of, I just had a client who wanted to do X menu on this page and Y menu on that page and found out how to do {if} {elseif} etc. including how to get the parent page alias to control it, very nice all in one template...

This is getting kind of long but I wanted to put some examples of what I did...

To change the header text...

{if  $root_page_alias eq 'spanish'}  The $root_page_alias is from a UDT
Una escuela esotérica dedicó a la práctica de vivir en el presente
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'italian'}
Una scuola esoterica dedicò alla pratica di vivere nella presenza
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'portuguese'}
Uma escola esotérica dedicou à prática de viver no presente
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'russian'}
Тайная школа, посвященная практике проживания в теперь
{/if}

I used root page alias to change menu position and actual menu items are controlled by smarty using the friendly position, which is the numbers you see next to the page name in Content > Pages...

     
{capture assign='friendly'}{$friendly_position|truncate:4:"" == ""}{/capture}  the truncate 4 part cuts it down to 4 numbers
        {menu template='liv : cssmenu_ulshadow' start_element="$friendly" show_root_siblings="1"}
     

Last but not least is the foot menu...

   
{if  $root_page_alias eq 'spanish'}
{menu template='liv : minimal_menu'  items='become-member-spanish,faq-spanish,feedback-spanish,privacy-spanish,site-map-spanish,email-spanish}
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'italian'}
{menu template='liv : minimal_menu'  items='become-member-italian,faq-italian,feedback-italian,privacy-italian,site-map-italian,email-italian}
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'portuguese'}
{menu template='liv : minimal_menu'  items='become-member-port,faq-port,feedback-port,privacy-port,site-map-port,email-port}
{elseif  $root_page_alias eq 'russian'}
{menu template='liv : minimal_menu'  items='become-member-russian,faq-russian,feedback-russian,privacy-russian,site-map-russian,email-russian}
{/if}
   

You can see how it works here, Note: you have to use the 'select' menu to the left of the top menu to 'Choose a language' of your choice, built using the menu manager...

http://livingpresence.com/

P.S. After building templates/designs in cmsms for so long I finally got a chance to do it in SMF, this forum, Wiki, the documentation, and Word Press, believe me when I say CMS Made Simple is the easiest by far, oh and one nice thing about smarty is you can use {tags} instead of having to wade thru a bunch of raw PHP to find a place to put a div or two...
jpatti
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by jpatti »

I found the wiki after I posted.  All the documentation I was hoping for was there!  So I feel a bit sheepish.  I'd suggest it should be linked from the documentation pages though.

That TemplateExternalizer, yes that is *just* the ticket!  Thank you!  That should be in the designer documentation too!

I did write the thing in a local file cause... well, can't see the using the textarea thing.  I would be pounding my head against a wall. 

I'm currently about halfway to transferring it to CMSMS.  And I was obviously pretty frustrated with the whole process when I posted.

I read the Smarty manual last night and it doesn't seem terrible.  Except I'm still not sure I see the point of another language.  I have often told people that there is nothing hard about what I do... all the languages are easy, HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP, SQL... the only tricky bit is remembering how to put the syntaxes all together and debugging the entire mess when something goes wrong.  At this point in time, it seems Smarty just adds another layer of complexity, so I don't see it.  We'll see if it grows on me. 

I think the reason I've never used it is it is advertised as separating the design and coding.  I work with my husband and we don't really work like that.  We both write HTML as needed wherever... in templates, in PHP, etc.. 

He is colorblind, so I do all the design and layout stuff (after subcontracting an artist to do the artwork) so he has only a rudimentary CSS knowledge.  When I build a template, it's got *everything* in it, down to each form element and even including form help and form errors. 

He is better at JavaScript than me, so writes anything new especially if complicated, and even more especially if it's got regular expressions. 

And while he can understand the most convoluted multidimensional arrays, he can't wrap his head around relational databases worth a darn so I write all the SQL beyond the most basic SELECT statement. 

We've probably been bad for each other in the sense that we "fill in" each other's weaknesses, so... well I am just never going to get the hang of regex and he is never going to get the hang of SQL. 

So... I've never seen why we would want to separate design and coding... as those aren't our issues per se and I never thought Smarty sounded interesting.

(BTW, I don't recommend marrying another programmer.  Took us years of arguing to work out our coding standards... most couples only have to argue about the kitchen standards, the bathroom standards, the money standards, the sex standards, the raising-the-kids standards... but our most nasty fights were always about coding!)

Anyways, maybe Smarty will grow on me, we'll see... but... I *can't* cut-and-paste things from other templates without knowing what they do, ya know?  It's just not *in* me.  So I have to learn it.

And yes Dr, I use a text editor too, I'm most fond of Textpad.  That it is not available for Linux is why I'm still on a Windows desktop, it's my "killer app" I can't live without.  Lets me customize everything from tabs to syntax highlighting for every document type.  I love it. 

On the other hand, hubby loves a text editor called TSE that seems utterly unusable to me and I *might* prefer a textarea in a form over that thing! 

A whole lot of my problem doing this conversion is going to be cleared up now that I found the wiki.  That sucker needs to be linked from the documentation!

I look forward to the day I can convert a template in an hour, been at mine for four days so far.  I'd be tempted to hire you to do it for me, except if I'm going to use this thing, I have to learn it.  I will have to support it, so have to know what I'm doing.

Thanks everyone for the advice and help!  The support here is NOT something I can complain about in the least - you guys are great!
tyman00
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by tyman00 »

Trust me once you start playing around with Smarty you will start to like it. Don't think of it as separating design from coding. Think of it as tool that allows you to carry out tasks that would normally require much more coding.

Here are a few great places to get an idea of how to use Smarty in CMSMS:
- http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php ... rty_guy.3F
- http://forum.cmsmadesimple.org/index.ph ... 689.0.html
- http://calguy1000.com/Blogs/12/60/basic ... kills.html
- http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php ... marty_Tips

Apart from the blog post on calguy1000.com those articles are what got me started in Smarty, that and just looking at other templates as examples and tweaking them to learn the behavior of the tags. Of course, I read the Smarty manual too. I will be the first to tell you I have very limited PHP skills and zero MySQL skills. My Javascript is ok, but I have been able to do some very customized setups and do some things I never thought possible with the basics of Smarty.

Finally, I am not sure what you are considering the documentation... The wiki (wiki.cmsmadesimple.org) is the documentation :)

Edit: Glad to see you coming around! We are glad to have you!!!
Last edited by tyman00 on Wed Jul 07, 2010 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If all else fails, use a bigger hammer.
M@rtijn wrote: This is a community. This means that we work together and have the same goal (a beautiful CMS), not that we try to put people down and make their (voluntary) job as difficult as can be.
jpatti
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Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by jpatti »

My first template is done!

Lots was just getting used to things... like the menu templates kicking out h3's instead of a's for current pages.  Had to do a bunch of extra CSS once I realized that was happening. 

Sort of getting the hang of how CMSMS works...

That clearfix thingy is brilliant!  No cluttering up the markup with a bunch of extra divs just to clear.  Dunno why I never thought of it.

And yes, there are a whole bunch of little things to deal with.  Yes, I had no choice but to Smarty many, many things. 

This was the last confusing bit I figured out:
 

Code: Select all

{menu start_level="2" number_of_levels="1" assign="submenu"}
{if $submenu}
   <div class="sidebar_module">
      <div class="sidebar_module_head">
         <h3>{$cgsimple->get_root_alias('','root_alias')}{$cgsimple->get_page_title($root_alias)}</h3>
      </div>
      <div class="sidebar_module_body">
         <div class="clearfix">{$submenu}</div>
      </div>
   </div><!-- end sidebar_module -->
{/if}
To convert a styled submenu in the sidebar with 4 background images...

I seem to be getting the hang of things. 

If nothing else, I am getting the hang of Googling the heck out of this site.  ;)
gour

Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by gour »

I'm CMSMS refugee...played with it, setup friend's site and then tried Django/Django-CMS.  >:(

Seeing that everything is not so thrilling there and it requires too much time for a not-so-decent result, I've decided to come back.  ;)
Of course, I read the Smarty manual too. I will be the first to tell you I have very limited PHP skills and zero MySQL skills. My Javascript is ok, but I have been able to do some very customized setups and do some things I never thought possible with the basics of Smarty.
I've bought CMS book+ebook and I'm curious how far one can come with CMSMS without going (too deep) in PHP, i.e. HTMl+CSS+Smarty+(some)JS & jQuery/UI ?

(I've skimmed thorugh the book and saw example of creating Products 'module' without PHP, that's why I'm curious...)  ???

Sincerely,
Gour
faglork

Re: CMSMS ROCKS!

Post by faglork »

Hi!
jpatti wrote: Lots was just getting used to things... like the menu templates kicking out h3's instead of a's for current pages. 
Which, in terms of usability, is the absolutely correct behavior.
jpatti wrote:
This was the last confusing bit I figured out:
 

Code: Select all

{menu start_level="2" number_of_levels="1" assign="submenu"}
{if $submenu}
   <div class="sidebar_module">
      <div class="sidebar_module_head">
         <h3>{$cgsimple->get_root_alias('','root_alias')}{$cgsimple->get_page_title($root_alias)}</h3>
      </div>
      <div class="sidebar_module_body">
         <div class="clearfix">{$submenu}</div>
      </div>
   </div><!-- end sidebar_module -->
{/if}
To convert a styled submenu in the sidebar with 4 background images...
Do you have a link for us to see the result ...?

Cheers,
Alex
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