CMSMS Taboo? Serious Thoughts About Our User Forums & Brand Appeal

[Frankie]

Not sure if I'm getting into any taboo by bringing these topics up,  so I'll preface by saying I'm a Creative Director at a web design agency near Kansas City that uses CMS Made Simple almost exclusively unless it's refused by a client. I have used it to manage nearly every site I've created, both personally and professionally, since 2006. That being said, I wanted to bring up the subjects of our community's forum platform and the general brand appeal of CMSMS.

I searched everywhere to see if this was being talked about already and came up with nothing. If this is true, then I'm right in starting a thread on the topic -- if false, I still believe I am right in starting a new thread. Making the point: the SMF search functionality is very lacking.

Although largely outdated in appearance, the basic functionality of our user forum (besides the search) seems to work pretty darn well. I've never had any issues with it screwing up posts or throwing script errors at me. Now, I'm not sure if we are using SMF because it's the best solution for our Community or because it's the platform that works best with CMSMS. In either case, I have had concerns about SMF for quite some time, always thinking it would be improved upon soon -- and all that thinking has finally lead me to post this thread on the matter.

I find the SMF search capabilities of our forum to be hardly usable. Unless using the exact phrases the author used in his/her post I find that it's nearly impossible to find the information I need. In some instances, I have found that just trying to find a relevant post to whatever is on my mind takes 3x longer than the complete thread takes to read once I've found it. I assume many others are experiencing this irony as well and actually dread searching the forum.

We all know that we are a relatively "small" movement compared to the big dogs. But what CMSMS has to offer (especially in it's 2.0 future) rivals those software packages. IMHO, however, the look and fresh use of technology in our User Community is really lacking compared to our counterparts.

Why reinvent the wheel? Well, one reason would be because our idea for a wheel is better. I believe this to be absolutely true in regards to CMSMS's ability to give us so much power and control over our sites while keeping things simple! That is why I choose CMSMS over other platforms. But will everyone else go that far? Will they even try CMSMS? Will they just choose a big dog like Joomla! or Drupal simply because the CMSMS User Community, Documentation Database and general "Brand" do not meet the standards they have come to expect from software communities?

"But Joomla! and Drupal are huge!" -- yes, I know 
"They have thousands of dollars a day being poured into them" -- yep, must be nice, huh? 

Right now, it seems CMSMS is still this awesome diamond in the rough, just like I found it back in 2006. But what about those who are turned off by the rough? How many do you think say, "Well, looks like this CMSMS thing has been around for a while but doesn't "seem" very popular...it must be crap or there would be signs of a large, thriving community by now".

There comes a time when a diamond is taken out and polished so more can enjoy it. I commend our Dev Team for creating this gem. I couldn't program a line of solid code if my life depended on it, but I would like to extend my support for any Marketing or Design initiatives CMSMS may pursue in the future. I hope more can help our Dev team polish CMSMS so more out there in the world can enjoy it like we have and contribute even more to the project. 

[moorezilla]

I was a little confused when I first read your post, but I've read it again and now I think I know what you're getting at. Here are my two cents on a couple issues raised.

I don't think the choice of forum software is the important issue. I think the important issue from a documentation standpoint is to see the forums as triage, rather than as documentation. CMSMS already has a wiki (http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php/Main_Page) and contributors have written how-tos on various topics, but a major (non dollar!) contribution that non-coders can make to the project is in the area of refining/adding documentation. This will make any search functionality better, simply because it will organize issues into usable subject headings.

I think, as a community, we have a couple problems that should not be difficult to solve, but which prove difficult to solve. It is difficult to get people to read the documentation first, then to search the forums if they do not find an answer in the documentation, and finally to post a question in the forums if they do not find an answer in the forums. Too often, we end up with people asking the same questions over and over again. Back to the search functionality question, think of how much better the forum search would work if there were only a 10th of the posts in there? Not that posts are a bad thing; hell... posts are a good sign that the community is alive! But imagine if all the posts on duplicate issues were removed, as people learned to first look at the wiki documentation AND learned to UPDATE the wiki documentation with solutions as they appear or are engineered.

On your other point about branding CMSMS, I think one of the best things we could do in this area is to take a page from Drupal's playbook in terms of case studies. For example, if someone uses CMSMS to create espn.com, we need them to write a case study on why they chose CMSMS, how they put it to work, and what modifications they may have made... etc. Colors, slogans, etc are nice, but nothing beats word of mouth like, "wow... whitehouse.gov is built with Drupal." Imagine this instead as, "wow... sophisticated website X is built with CMSMS." We have some of this now in the "CMSMS Show Off" forum, but in terms of branding, if the community wants to be considered (by a larger audience) on a par with some of the other larger open source  projects, an area that needs to be addressed is this communication of, "big boys are using CMSMS for big boy sites." This is not to denigrate or belittle the sites being built with CMSMS now. People are building great sites with CMSMS now, and this project definitely has talented individuals, but in terms of exposure and adoption, it could use an Amazon moment... as in... "holy crap... someone just redesigned amazon.com and is using CMSMS as its cms."

I don't know if this is even what the community wants, but from a branding standpoint, I think that's really what we're missing in terms of growing to the next level.

[replytomk3]

On your other point about branding CMSMS, I think one of the best things we could do in this area is to take a page from Drupal's playbook in terms of case studies. For example, if someone uses CMSMS to create espn.com, we need them to write a case study on why they chose CMSMS, how they put it to work, and what modifications they may have made... etc. Colors, slogans, etc are nice, but nothing beats word of mouth like, "wow... whitehouse.gov is built with Drupal." Imagine this instead as, "wow... sophisticated website X is built with CMSMS." We have some of this now in the "CMSMS Show Off" forum, but in terms of branding, if the community wants to be considered (by a larger audience) on a par with some of the other larger open source  projects, an area that needs to be addressed is this communication of, "big boys are using CMSMS for big boy sites." This is not to denigrate or belittle the sites being built with CMSMS now. People are building great sites with CMSMS now, and this project definitely has talented individuals, but in terms of exposure and adoption, it could use an Amazon moment... as in... "holy crap... someone just redesigned amazon.com and is using CMSMS as its cms."

I have suggested this a couple of times in the CMSMS showoff topics. Perhaps it should be made a sticky that if people did significant customization, module integration, etc, etc they should post the details in the showoff board. Right now, all we get to see is a complete site, no information whatsoever how that website was made.

This will also help much more in two areas than others: low number of templates available for beginners, and ideas for beginners on how to create a unique-looking website.

[jmcgin51]

you mean like this sticky?

http://forum.cmsmadesimple.org/index.ph ... 545.0.html

[Frankie]

moorezilla, I really appreciate that valuable input! Thanks for responding! I completely agree with you about the documentation issue, it should UNDOUBTEDLY be contributed to more and searched before the forum is searched...however, I do not agree that forum software is not an issue, and I'll explain why.

First, I would like to remind us all that there are going to be major viewpoints between designers and developers when it comes to solving problems. I, being a designer, think to solve problems with better design, while developers think functionality and procedurally. Both are equally important. When both groups come together for a cause they believe in (in this case, CMSMS) there is a much greater chance of long term success.

All notably successful projects have been a perfect marriage of outstanding development and outstanding design.


The Wiki/Forum Issue

The Challenge: How can an improved user experience solve these issues?

If you want the user to do specific tasks in a specific order without natural guidance, never expect them to. We drive straight down the road because of the painted lines, not just the street signs. We should never assume the ONLY solution to a problem is to chastise newbies on the board for "Not reading the stickies..." or "Doing a better search..." The progressive enhancement approach to design forces us to look at solving common problems from a user experience angle gradually over time. This approach has been largely ignored.

1. What if our search defaulted to incorporate BOTH Wiki and Forum results?
2. What if we beautifully organized the Wiki results first, above the Forum results, after every search?
3. What if users also had the option to only search the Wiki or only the Forum, from the same search tool?
4. What if our search results had the same relevancy as other popular forum communities?
5. What if an improved user experience made more time for real contributions instead of chastising newbies and moderating posts?


The Search Issue

I agree with you about the huge amounts of double posts that cluttering up the Forum. But is the lack of reading our Wiki the root of the problem? No. IMO, it's also beacuse the search relevancy is not that good. It's a catch 22 scenario. Even those who DO follow the rules can end up creating a duplicate topic simply because they can't find what they need after a couple searches. IMHO the search does not seem operate as effectively as other engines we all use at other web sites and communities across the web. Why would we expect someone to do 5 or 10 searches for something when they're used to doing 1 or 2 everywhere else? Show me a high traffic Fortune 500 using it and I will completely recant.

I am not very keen on this sort of thing, so I would really like to hear some solid Dev Team input if I am just dead wrong here. This is not my expertise, but it's something I've noticed.

The Forum experience is not "Web 2.0" - I hate that term, but I feel it's appropriate to use here. Simply put, a better design would make a better forum. I'm not sure if SMF can also incorporate Wiki into it's search, or how exactly that would work. But that's not my expertise! I'm merely providing design and experience suggestions to improve the community. I found only one CMS project (ModX) that is using SMF and have created an outstanding theme for it.

Joomla = phpBB
Drupal = Drupal Forum Module
Wordpress = bbPress
Silverstripe = Silverstripe Forum Module
TangoCMS = phpBB
LightCMS = Vanilla
PureEdit = Vanilla
Jaws = phpBB
ModX CMS = SMF


Case Studies

YES, case studies are excellent! Most of my design clients run service-based companies. Nearly 100% of those projects contain testimonials and case studies, because it brings proven credibility and comfort to the undecided user. ...BUT (a very big but) by casually dismissing colors and slogans you are basically discrediting good design, which, I cannot let you get away with

It would be like a designer saying, "Well, a search feature is nice, but people find what they need because my design is great!" or "Stable code is great, but not as important as my logo that defines the brand!" Both positions are old ways of thinking. Let's stop pretending that design doesn't matter as much! The new web doesn't operate this way, at least not with notable success.


Conclusion

Why am I bringing all this up? Because I care about this project. I have been using CMSMS for years and I want to bring a professional contribution. I realize this area is seldom discussed (so I'm trying to make this topic stand out!) I really invite others to join in on this topic. Both, designers and developers seeing eye to eye.

[gap_tooth_clan]

I was looking at the forums today and thinking the same thing about the look and feel of them. Although using the forums for quite some time, I always find it hard to look for the date and where to hit the reply button, these things just do not pop out at me. The overall look and feel is very dated and this does affect my ability to quickly and easily find solutions.

Honestly I had forgotten all about the Wiki, I always found it very difficult to find a bit of information on the wiki that I had previously read, which is why I have since forsaken the wiki in favour of the forums. I am probably as guilty as everyone else in not updating the Wiki.

I feel that branding is always very important in sending a positive message to someone visiting the site. We came from predominantly working with Joomla but found the project had died, there was no active progression and Joomla was an entirely frustrating platform. Our developers researched several CMS's and found CMSMS to be the favourite, but this was coming from a pure developers perspective who were really looking in depth at the nuts and bolts of the CMS and the prospect of easy use and development. I recently discovered http://www.silverstripe.com/ I think you are instantly sold on the look and feel of the site and you want to explore and find out more. Compared with http://www.cmsmadesimple.org/ it appears very basic in terms of design and does not give the user much confidence in the professionalism of the project.

p.s. No offence was intended to the designer of the site, I could do little better myself.

As an observation the most successful platforms have a dedicated team behind them, Wordpress, Silver Stripe, Magento. I think the community is a little basic, but with little or no funding I think it is strong and I am very grateful to it.

[fredp]

I like where this topic is headed. 

...
1. What if our search defaulted to incorporate BOTH Wiki and Forum results?
...

Actually, I do this often with the help of google's site search capability.  If you haven't tried it before, here's a little experiment...

Compare the results of the following two search methods and see which you find more informative:
1) Search for the three keywords "backup files database" using the CMSMS forum search.
2) Search for the same keywords using a google site specific search of the wiki.cmsmadesimple.org and the forum.cmsmadesimple.org subdomains:
    http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aw ... s+database

[gap_tooth_clan]

Just looked at the mod x site, it has been updated since the last time I view it, a vast improvement on the previous version. I do think the design is a little too much like fisher price my first web 2.0 for my liking. I do feel that is very good at selling and promoting its own product.

I think the show case on the page is a fantastic way of grabbing and focussing peoples attention. I have completed many sites with CMSMS and I am sure some of them would be a great tool for promoting CMSMS further, but hiding them in the forums is not really doing anyone any favours.

I had never heard of http://www.speaklight.com before and viewing their site I was a little taken aback. I think the videos are just such a great selling point, going on the fact most people are plain too lazy to read anything. A video wraps things up very nicely, it just seems so very slick.

Another point I really liked about the speaklight site, is the business end of things they talked about the designs on how you can download for free or simply pay a fixed amount for a developer to create the templates for you. This service costs $495, perhaps this is a way to generate more income to the dev team and the project as a whole. On the mod x site there was a whole section for posting jobs and CVs too.

[paulbaker]

Hey Frankie

I stumbled across this post by accident (which kind of proves the problem about the forum search!) and I just wanted to chip in that I agree with your thoughts.

Don't get me wrong, I love CMSMS very much.  For me it is the flexibility of it that is the selling point - you can have a basic site up and running very quickly.  But you can also add feature after feature and create a great functional site that non-techies are able to look after.  I am very grateful to the development team who have created this super system.

However, I have never been that keen on the CMSMS branding.  I don't like the desert island palm tree logo, to me it has no relevance to content management systems.  I don't even like the name (made simple makes it sound like an entry level CMS not capable of advanced functions, and we all know that isn't true).  And I agree with you completely about the forum - difficult to find the info you need.  I am aware we're stuck with the name but improving the search facility on the forum should help considerably.  As others have said it will help prevent some of the double posts and it will mean quicker development for all of us and especially newbies who just want to get something working.

For me, I try to help out a bit by answering forum questions where I can, although I am by no means an expert yet.

So yeah, it's a +1 from me.

Paul