Open letter to CMSMS community

General project discussion. NOT for help questions.
winkelman
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by winkelman »

nicmare wrote: i think everyone does a great job. cyberman, calguy and the other ones.
I dont think so - the deleting of bug reports without any solution is not really professional and can't be good for CMSMS ... only cause the bug reporter was a banned forum member

http://dev.cmsmadesimple.org/bug/view/5823
I love the CMSMS project and at no time did I spoke vile language against CMSMS. People must see the difference between criticising in hopes of helping and criticising out of negative emotions and of not wanting to contribute in any way.
Yeah the only one what counts is the future of CMSMS.
Jos
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by Jos »

openletter wrote: How many posts did Cyberman have before he was banned? More than five hundred at least I would guess? How can anyone think that someone this commited would not want the best for the project?
500 posts? Make that more then 5000. 9460 to be precise, as he states in his letter. He was a busy man  :D  Cyberman didn't get banned. His rights were taken, he left himself.

Openletter, you talk a lot about money in your first post. I think that is not the biggest issue in this case. It's more about your point 6: patches and hacked code posts. I suspect maybe there's some old pain related to mister pi. too.

I however fully agree with this rule. It doesn't look good to CMSms if the forum is overloaded with topics like "This is not working" and "That gives errors", while those people are working with hacked code. And it makes it extra hard to give support.
But if this is such an issue for both sides, then why is it not possible to find a solution everybody agrees with. Maybe a separate forumsection with restricted access can be created?

I agree with you and uniqu3 about CMSms not specifically being for professionals only. I myself don't know much professionals that hang out here. I for sure am not  8)

Uhm, professional?
It doesn't seem very professional to me to have a bugtracker that is overloaded with open bugs.
It doesn't seem very professional to me to see modules released with no changelog in the forge.
It doesn't seem professional to me the way dedicated people are treated.

Let me make clear that I don't mind, but to state that CMSms is for professionals, you would expect some professionality how things are done here  :P
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by Dr.CSS »

I know it seems like the Development Team is unresponsive to this post but we are working on a response to be posted soon, being that it is the Holidays it's not easy to get everyone together quickly...
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by jmcgin51 »

thanks Dr
Peciura

Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by Peciura »

It is public secret - CMSMS has gown up to a big project and involves many people. Managing software development includes very boring task - prevent programing crisis (when further development costs to much or is not possible at all). There is only one way to keep project viable - to follow common rules. "rules/recommendations" are based on decades of experience in software development (planning, programming, testing, fixing, publishing, resource management and so on).
A community should be responsible in the first place and just then demanding. But face it, there are plenty of tiresome leeches. As a result there is simply left no tolerance to well known community members (like cyberman). I am sure there is nothing wrong with patches in forum, but there is a group of people who tends to misuse code and later annoy everybody within reach.
CMSMS is rather centralized project it means human resources are very limited. I feel very bad about loosing active German comunity members but it would be intolerable to loose all dev team.
You guys intend to build CMSMS German formum. Will there be international place for patches to CMSMS and its modules ?
I reckon recent decisions were done to keep CMSMS alive for a long time and to regain some personal life to dev team. It was brutal to bin whole board, but i would like to see you all in international community in one or another way.
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by antibart »

I'been realising some projects in Typo3, Joomla and many, many in CMSMS.

One reason to keep on with CMSMS was not only the fine and flexible logic and its structure. It was also that I found the best working friendly support forum regarding a OpenSource-System ever.

Now I am adraid that the CMSMS-forum will go a similar way as some other cimmunities did. You get  one global answer for all requests as: Don't mess with the system: take it as it is - or leave it.

That would make me very, very sad...
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by Ted »

There are two sides to every story. The readers of this thread are probably wondering why it has taken so long for the Dev team to respond. The reason for this is that we took the time to confer with each other and to discuss how we should respond. We think the forum is not the right place to respond to such an open letter containing personal critical remarks.

We understand that the impression has risen that the Dev team is on a personal crusade against Cyberman. We would like to emphasize here that this is not the case at all. So one of the first things we want to say is that the Dev team has always highly appreciated and admired his work and effort and still does.

We have extensively deliberated and discussed how we should respond. It’s not as simple as it may seem. With this open letter we and the entire community have been confronted with a one-sided interpretation. Besides that, in our opinion a few issues have not been taken into account in this open letter. After discussing the contents of this open letter extensively among ourselves we have come to the conclusion to place an extensive response that sheds some light on our side of the story and tells the readers of this thread about the efforts made from our side.

In this past year several members have put an effort into contacting Cyberman personally. One of them was Anne-Mieke (Compufairy in the forum / Razorfairy in the IRC). She contacted him by Phone. She did this because Cyberman invests tons of time and effort in our community in general and especially in building and expanding the German community. Knowing he is also THE powerposter in our forums she decided – with agreement of the Dev team - to contact him as she is playing a role in our marketing and general presentation to the World. She reasoned that he could be a great sparring partner to exchange thoughts about the future ideas, plans and developments in CMSMS and its community. She was enthusiastic about the talks they had and expressed this within the team, letting us know that he had a couple of very good points that should be discussed in the Dev team.

One of the questions she asked her fellow members of the Dev team after the constructive talks she had with Cyberman is why he – being an influential, skilled and passionate member of our community - is not part of the our team. She is one of our newer members (joined us in April 2010) and therefore she could not know that Cyberman already had been a member of the Dev team.

When you become a Dev team member you take it upon yourself to fulfill certain responsibilities. To be present in the Dev channel and to communicate and confer with your fellow teammates on a regular basis and to participate in online meetings are part of that.

Dev. Team members may, as needed, have access to CMSMS resources, such as administrator access to the various installs of CMSMS, the forum, the wiki, and login accounts to the server. Not every team member has access to all resources because they do not need it, and this access to resources is cleaned up from time to time.

An advantage you have as a member of the Dev team is that you are close to the source, meaning you have the opportunity to talk, debate and influence all kinds of actual issues. Ideas, suggestions, but also frustrations about CMSMS as a system and everything around it, can be discussed with fellow team members in a direct way.

Of course it can happen every now and then that a member is not able to be in the channel or in communication with us for a short while, this happens to all of us occasionally. Unfortunately Cyberman was rarely present at all and neither was there much communication from him to fellow Dev members. This is the reason why (regrettably) his Dev team membership ended.

We want to emphasize that we are not an elite squad and we certainly do not hide in an ivory tower. We think it’s important people can approach us easily, both in IRC (where the majority of the Dev team members are daily present) and on a personal basis. This is why our contact data is visible on the developers page of the main site.

In response to the friction which was a result of our decision to shut down the hacks and patches board Anne-Mieke grabbed the Phone and again contacted Cyberman. During this conversation she proposed Cyberman to rejoin the Dev team and to get actively engaged in dialogues, discussions and decisions and to attend our official monthly Dev meeting as this would give him the opportunity to share his thoughts and ideas in a more influential way. She emphasized that his participation would be highly appreciated and cheered on by the whole team. Unfortunately he declined because of the investment of time it would require, which we respect.

So Anne-Mieke made him another proposal. She offered to arrange a Skype conference call on a short term with Ted, Robert (Calguy) and him in order to give all the opportunity to get into a “man to man” dialogue. We’re sorry to say that Cyberman again declined, stating this was difficult due to the fact that he feels his verbal command of the English language would be insufficient. Anne-Mieke then offered to participate too so she could assist in overcoming the language barrier as she is fluent in both English and German, he still declined.

A few days later we figured that it might be good if we offered another alternative through means of the Language Partners Board. This part of the forum has been set up especially for the members in our community who run and moderate the international CMS Made Simple domains. This is a “members only” board. All foreign moderators (including Cyberman) have received a message about it and an invitation to join the board. In part of the first posting of the board we stated: "This board provides you with a more inside track to the decisions made by the CMSMS Dev Team. However access to this board does NOT mean that you have a vote in any issues that the CMSMS Dev team has to decide upon. We hope that this board provides you with a channel by which you can better understand what decisions are made by the development team, and why they have been made."

One of the goals of this board is to provide a private channel where the international site and forum moderators can voice their opinions, suggestions and concerns and they can get into a dialogue with the Dev team. We think it’s obvious that – even though final voting is an exclusive matter for the Dev team - well founded input in this board is taken into serious consideration!

A very important part of this board is dedicated to making a united effort to present all international sites in a uniform way to the World to show we’re all part of the same worldwide community that presents itself as one identity. We reached out to the international moderators and combined our efforts and skills to port the CMSMS main site theme to their websites. DrCss has dedicated a large portion of his time to assist in the CSS issues. One of the sites that already has been ported to the new design is www.cmsmadesimple.ru, thanks to the highly appreciated efforts of Sonya. The same goes for www.cmsmadesimple.hu. Most of the other international sites currently are still in the style of our former design, with exception of the French and the German site. As we speak the transformation of the French site is in progress.

We regret to say however that there has been almost no participation from Cyberman there either, whereas we thought we had offered a good opportunity which could have lead to a healthy discussion.

Finally we would like to respond to the remark about the banishment of a forum member that was referred to in the open letter. There has been good reason to do so. As Cyberman emphasizes in the German Forum section and which is also emphasized in all other language sections including the English one, there are certain guidelines. The person we banned had repeatedly ignored these guidelines in ways that were not only offensive to the developers (including third party developers) and the people who volunteer to give support, but also offensive to read for general visitors of our forum.

This also addresses the teams decision to remove the flag for the German site as there are some very derogatory remarks made about the system in general, the forum, and some forum members in particular.

We would like to offer Cyberman (for the fourth and last time) to go into a direct live dialogue with the entire Dev team to discuss and solve his (and our) griefs and to resolve this situation for once and for all in good peace in an online meeting. We leave it up to him to decide if he wants to invite the members that he speaks for in the 'open letter' to join the dialogue.

We propose to have this meeting in a separate IRC channel, and hereby ask Cyberman to inform us of three possible dates before the 7th of January. To ensure that the majority of the Dev team members can be present we friendly but urgently request of you to inform us about the possible dates as soon as possible and to plan the meeting between 7pm and 9pm (your local time).

The Development Team has had the opportunity to draft, review, approve, and voted in favor of publishing this response.
baresi
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by baresi »

I don't want to get involved because frankly I shouldn't but having read all that...Ted your first paragraph, which seems to have been your first instinct, is wrong. The reason is very simple, the loss of some part of the project, even if unofficial, affects the users more than the dev team. Personal criticism is not the point here and is coming from one or few any way.

My 2 cents
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M@rtijn
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by M@rtijn »

Ted (and team),

Thank you very much for this very comprehensive respond!
I understand that it takes time to write such big posts  :D

It turns out that some of the things Cyberman expressed in this open letter were not a very good representation of the truth. Mainly, the contact between him and Anne-mieke is a pretty big thing he 'forgot' to mention in his post.

My previous reply in this topic was written whilst I was under the impression that his letter was honest, but leaving that detail out was very wrong.

I hope he takes on the offer and everybody is able to speak about what's on their mind.

I also hope that in a couple of weeks we can look back at this situation as a little growing-pain in the evolution of CMSMS.
Make your community a better place!
replytomk3

Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by replytomk3 »

Thank you for a formal response.

However, I would like to use this opportunity to ask a few questions.

I am not on the dev team, nor am I a full time programmer. I have made over a thousand posts (like openletter said and by whom I have been contacted to respond). It was made by quickly (sometimes being the first) responding to users with a problem. Many times I have logged into forum users' website to fix something for them. I have also made many upgrades of very old installations.

I would like to ask some questions pertaining to the spirit of the original open letter, and not to the Ted's side of the story.

I have attempted several times to help with issues that I have found, in only ways that I could. I am not a full time developer, but when I saw a problem I opened my mouth. If it was an obsolete module. If the module breached privacy ethics. If something looked broken to me. If I saw a problem that noone else seemed to have.

Because I have worked with many users, and upgraded many old websites I think I saw some valid issues that noone else believed.

Few examples - "A" character appears if database encoding not specified correctly. TinyMCE breaks if page title contains double quotes and/or then is deleted. All the obsolete modules I have documented. Default templates revealing email of users who posted comments. etc, etc.

I have been told

A) To not post this online because everyone else sees it all
B) To not post if I do not have a code solution to the problem
C) To not post because I was not experienced enough to have taken care of this myself.

I have, after several warnings given to me, deleted all my feature suggestion posts and I am not motivated anymore to post quick responses and things that I have found online.

I believe that good things can come out of bad situations. Having heard both sides, and several other people as well, I see issues remaining that I would like also to hear a response on, to have an official response.

I) What is the way for people like me who are not full time developers or part of the dev team to post issues they have run across, besides the Forge bug tracker when those bugs are not addressed by anyone in a reasonable amount of time.
II) What is the way for people like me to contribute with ideas and feature suggestions.
hoshy

Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by hoshy »

Dear Ted,

thanks for your detailed explanation why Cyberman ist not in the developers team anymore.
It would have been nice if someone had told this to Cyberman BEFORE doing it.
Now it is too late.

Did you ever think about that Cyberman would need to stay up the whole night to be in IRC at the same time you dev guys are? So IRC or skype must be a joke, isn't it?

But who cares about that?
What about the other facts?

Why is cmsmadesimple.de suddenly "commercial spam"?


This also addresses the teams decision to remove the flag for the German site as there are some very derogatory remarks made about the system in general, the forum, and some forum members in particular.
Reminds me at Hitler when he said "Either you are with us or you are against us" ... uh oh, i said the H word ... i may be banned now. No, wait, didn't that Bush dude said the same?

Anyway, so critics aren't allowed, huh? Or what exactly are you talking about?
The "flame" in the german forum started AFTER the open letter was posted.
But the flag has been removed BEFORE this.

What about removing all german moderators BEFORE the open letter was posted?
Without to tell them "Thank you for your help, but we don't need you anymore."
Why did no one tell NaN that he is now moderator all allone?
I've never seen that guy in IRC anyway. So why was he elecetd to be moderator?
After about 5 years of translations and support Cyberman suddenly isn't worth to be moderator anymore - and informed about that decision - because he has an additional forum?

As i can read in the german forums no one wanted to leave this forum here.
They just wanted a place to talk about things that aren't allowed here: Development.
Removing allmost all german mods, removing the flag, banning users because of critics, restriction in postings ... etc. made them leave all.

Listen, those guys that left don't need this community. But this community needs guys like them.

All these things happened AFTER [a well known username here] noticed who is owner of cmsmadesimple.de.
At this time there was nothing up in the new german forums.
So please don't talk about "derogatory remarks".
This simply is not true.
It may be true now.
But not at that time.

CMSms is made by pros for pros, huh?
But what is this forum here?
You may only ask "What do i need to do to ... make it green?" or "Where is the button that i can push to ... ?" Questions a pro never would ask. A pro wants to tell "How can i fix this? Why don't you do it like that? This mod makes it faster. Here you can add a button to push to ... "

Don't tell me about the bugreports or feature requests.
If you read something like "GO AWAY! I DON'T LIKE YOU! I WILL IGNORE YOUR BUGREPORTS!" as a reply of one of the main developers when someone files a bugreport ... THIS is what i call very good public relations ::)

Derogatory remarks...

Rediculous.
openletter
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by openletter »

I have looked at my crystal ball and it says that Cyberman isn't going to materialize on the date specified.

And two other members left as well. Which means they have agreed to what Cyberman said, or saw the same thing.

"without any prior notification, conversation, comment or information to me" Is what the claim is, and is something that other members say they saw exactly the same. So, every misbehavior (in someone's opinion) will result in a ban without explanation now?

Cyberman spoke like someone only wishing the best for CMSMS, as I am sure many other forum members are. I think a few people have no idea how to differenciate between trying to help, and those who only have negative energy they want to impart on others.

"But especially engaging in the English community is not really fun anymore (this was 1-2 years or otherwise). I feel this is too violent intervention in the freedom of opinion expressed in this forum. That is why I am not in the English forum, because here I had the feeling that his own approaches and some feedback on Plug-in/Modul level are not always welcome. I often had the feeling ... oh, who now feels stepped on their toes" Several people feel the same way.

I don't want to name names, but I would go and check bugs that were closed.  Project is becoming too big? Then don't try to keep plowing on ahead over the bones of objections and protests.

So, from the response, the answer we get is "There wasn't a big problem besides someone's personal feelings and anger, and we'll continue on as usual most likely?????"

M@rtijn, you put your hands down far too easily.

"I'm a bit surprised at how many newly registered members who seem to know more things about this than many of us...." many people here either participate on other forums, are only part of the dev team (or translations, etc), or just watch and observe all the posts. So not a huge number posts does not mean people are new to CMSMS.

alby
RonnyK
Rolf
Nullig
JeremyBASS
jce76350
Patricia
tsw
Dee
nuno

choose to be silent...
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Dr.CSS
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Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by Dr.CSS »

openletter wrote: I don't want to name names, but I would go and check bugs that were closed.  Project is becoming too big? Then don't try to keep plowing on ahead over the bones of objections and protests.
Here I see 3 pages of bug reports, 1.5 pages of them are for older version of CMSMS so most likely fixed just not closed or waiting for a response...

Hmm someone else needs to get it together...

http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/

The people you posted that are on the Dev. team and were available voted on the post from Ted, and feel it's not necessary to post anything else...

The communication between Cyberman and members of the team are addressed in it...
Last edited by Anonymous on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
replytomk3

Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by replytomk3 »

Dr.CSS wrote: Here I see 3 pages of bug reports, 1.5 pages of them are for older version of CMSMS so most likely fixed just not closed or waiting for a response...

Hmm someone else needs to get it together...

http://joomlacode.org/gf/project/joomla/tracker/
Hmm??? DrCSS, who are you addressing, and what are you saying?

I have subscribed to watch this topic since the beginning, when I got a PM from cyberman. But for some reason my subscription was not working, I wasn't getting any notification emails. So, I'm joining late into conversation.
Dr.CSS wrote: and feel it's not necessary to post anything else...
So, no any other responses are to be expected?
JeremyBASS

Re: Open letter to CMSMS community

Post by JeremyBASS »

alby
RonnyK
Rolf
Nullig
JeremyBASS
jce76350
Patricia
tsw
Dee
nuno


choose to be silent...


Sorry, I have been trying not to lose my family, my house and my life as I know it.  But even at that, one of your devs has been in the forum still helping, as much as I can.  Still working on modules you guys use.  Same goes of others, So...

My power poster endorsement.

Ok then, me as a 1k+ "power poster" and no more than that..  My proof in what and how I think is matched in the semi-daily commits to modules I make, and the threads I help in.  I think all of this is a shame to see, and wish everyone finds the end they wish to see.  

Now My Dev endorsement.

As a Dev teammate, well, I stand 100% beside the rest of my mates.  There is a chance for redemption for all, I hope that we all can make amends to this, and get to chat with Cyberman.  But in the end, we have rules, I myself have been banned for breaking them, but now I'm a Dev member, and that is from me hacking, helping, and even being outspoken.. And was still asked.  I have not and do not always see eye to eye with everyone from Ted to Robert (Calguy), but I'm respectful, take my time, and do what I can to help.  Now I'm not saying any or all of this applies to Cyberman just to clear that...

The point is... Well I'm a Dev member and I know I have directly confronted my peers… yet I worked with, talked with, and compromised as needed.

As one of the newest Dev members (+1year or so) I can say for sure, they/we work with people.  And.. we all have to play by the rules, even Robert and Ted do it..  Proof is in the letter and the thought to take a few days to have the team go over it my friends.

I hope that clears something’s up on how tolerant people/dev members really are.

Now, back to work I go, friends aside this is a job for me and I need to pay the bills and live my life.  I'm off to visit family so to all,
Peace be with you all over these holidays
 
Cheers –Jeremy
Last edited by JeremyBASS on Wed Dec 22, 2010 4:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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