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Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 7:35 pm
by NamantH
I am working on v2.1 of the bookmarks module now.  Currently the plans are to add the following:
1. Logos for the bookmarks.
2. Users selectable templates for the bookmarks (i have 2 or 3 that i plan on including)
3. Settings for default template and some other things as i think of them :)  (this is based on the glossary system for templates.

So... Are there any other features that people would like to see implemented before I finish this out.  as it stands i think it will be mid next week that I plan on releasing 2.1... So anything that gets in before, that I like, will be implemented for that version, otherwise v2.2 or beyond.

Also, after I get this stuff in i do not plan on revisiting the bookmarks module unless there are bugs, or requests.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:56 pm
by mahjong
NamantH wrote: I am working on v2.1 of the bookmarks module now.  Currently the plans are to add the following:
1. Logos for the bookmarks.
2. Users selectable templates for the bookmarks (i have 2 or 3 that i plan on including)
3. Settings for default template and some other things as i think of them :)  (this is based on the glossary system for templates.

So... Are there any other features that people would like to see implemented before I finish this out.  as it stands i think it will be mid next week that I plan on releasing 2.1... So anything that gets in before, that I like, will be implemented for that version, otherwise v2.2 or beyond.

Also, after I get this stuff in i do not plan on revisiting the bookmarks module unless there are bugs, or requests.
That was last February. Since, NamantH vanished. On his profile : Last Active: 27 Feb 2006, 06:34.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:15 pm
by NamantH
Sorry i have not been active in awhile, work got the better of me and i havent been able to do anything really.

I will be re-visiting these soon, like the end of the summer, to get the 1.0 stuff in and anything else that i have done now.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:34 pm
by Dee
Hello NamantH - welcome back soon then :)
In your absence I made the changes needed for cmsmadesimple-1.0 to Bookmarks-2.0 (in a 2.0-branch in SVN) and released it as Bookmarks-2.0.1. The 1.0 changes are also in the trunk, but besides that it is as you left it.

Regards,
D

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 10:47 pm
by mahjong
NamantH wrote:I will be re-visiting these soon, like the end of the summer, to get the 1.0 stuff in and anything else that i have done now.
Last logged on 11 Aug 2006, 13:00. Half a year later, still nothing... :-[

Once again, NamantH made a promise... he didn't kept.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 11:26 pm
by calguy1000
mahjong wrote: Last logged on 11 Aug 2006, 13:00. Half a year later, still nothing... :-[

Once again, NamantH made a promise... he didn't kept.
mahjongg, you seem to forget that all of the work done for CMSMS was done by volunteers, and that you get it for Free.  This work is done by people in their spare time, and put up on the forge and other locations so that others may get some enjoyment and use out of it.  Sometimes it's done so that others can help contribute to the project and keep it going.

Lately, quite a few people (or a few people quite often) have been griping about bugs, design flaws, or what they see as poor customer support in projects on the forge. Quite honestly, I'm tired of it.  None of us get paid on a regular basis to do this work, or to support it.  When we see somebody griping and complaining about 'promises not kept' or 'lack of service (I read this in another thread)' it diminishes us, our work, and the energy we have to do any more of it.

Quite a few of the CMS users charge significant amounts of money for their time and energy to build websites using code written for free by others.  Perhaps you do too?  Many of them do not contribute a red cent to the original module developers, or to Ted for his work on the core (many thanks to those who have by the way).  And it is often those who haven't contributed any cash that are the loudest complainers about bugs or problems in some code.

If you have a problem with the core, or with a module, and something doesn't quite work, or work the way you want it to, then please feel free to contact the developer to ask questions, or to request a change.  But don't cry or scream if it doesn't happen in your time frame.  You also have a few other options to get things done:
a) Learn to fix it yourself.
b) Offer to pay the developer to fix it.  He may be working on something else, and the offer of a bit of cash may be enough to change his priorities a little bit.
c) Pay somebody else to do it for you.
If you actually had an agreement with somebody to do work for you in trade for some other goods or services, then you would have a reasonable reason to be concerned, irritated or even angry.  If you're not paying anything, then you don't.

We appreciate all of our users, and try to answer as many questions, and provide the best support possible, but please keep in mind we have families, responsibilities and jobs.  We welcome your input, and try to keep ontop of our various projects, but it isn't always possible.

Thank you for your continuing support.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:19 am
by mahjong
mahjongg, you seem to forget that all of the work done for CMSMS was done by volunteers, and that you get it for Free.  This work is done by people in their spare time, and put up on the forge and other locations so that others may get some enjoyment and use out of it. Sometimes it's done so that others can help contribute to the project and keep it going.
CalGuy1000, you seem to be unaware that I am one those volunteers, and that I have offered my services many times, always for free, and contributed at least thirty times to bug fixes and create a new module, for which I offer same day support. I have registered on the Forge and ask many times to join development teams on several modules; Bookmarks is one of them. I never received any answer from the administrators of those modules. I was, and still are, willing to work on the module.

NamantH gave his word, more than once, and never follow trough. Like it or not. It tells a lot about HIS commitment (not yours). More than half of the modules, the ones you don't manage yourself, are abandoned. Bug reports are piling up. Patches are often ignored. And there is no way for us to contribute other than complain on the forum, since the original creator of the module has left and doesn't answer any more on the Forge.
Lately, quite a few people (or a few people quite often) have been griping about bugs, design flaws, or what they see as poor customer support in projects on the forge. Quite honestly, I'm tired of it.
I see you work like a crazy here. You have done more than your share for this project. Maybe, too much. It's time for you to learn to delegate work and take a small vacation. Because you don't trust others enough to work on your baby, you insist only a few of your close buddies touch the code. You are less than ten developers to do 98% of the work. No wonder, you can't keep up with all the growing demands and are, understandingly, tired. If you continue, you are headed for a burn-out. You have create a system where you funnel everything trough a few hands instead of opening up.
When we see somebody griping and complaining about 'promises not kept' or 'lack of service (I read this in another thread)' it diminishes us, our work, and the energy we have to do any more of it.
Absolutely not. People don't complain about your commitment and are extremely grateful for all you have done. People complain because they see how CMSMS is great and how easily it could become the best CMS around. They are frustrated the next steps, so near, are yet so far to be achieved only because of small details. You have simply created a monster. You have opened new fronts without adding new soldiers. Each day, more functionalities are added. The project becomes more and more sophisticated and the code become more and more heavy to managed. Meanwhile, you haven't really trusted new coders to join the development team. Now, you feel the pressure of being a close knitted, minuscule group of developers. And, because you are under pressure, you feel, to incorporate new collaborators, newcomers must know CMSMS inside out as much, if not better that you; be somehow your friends, available 24/7 on the chat so you can monitor them; and willing to sacrifice themselves as you do, to adequately respond to the growing demand. Your criterion has become so high, nobody qualifies. You have blocked to only escape that could free you from this impossible situation.
If you have a problem with the core, or with a module, and something doesn't quite work, or work the way you want it to, then please feel free to contact the developer to ask questions, or to request a change.
And, it's exactly what I and others do. We contact you and request changes. But, we are more and more numerous. And on your side you are still the same small team.
But don't cry or scream if it doesn't happen in your time frame.
I don't complain because it doesn't happen in my time frame, but because NamantH cannot be trusted to respect HIS OWN time frame. If he's unwilling to pursue development of his module, he should tell so and leave it to others to take the relay.
a) Learn to fix it yourself.
It's what I am doing from the start. I've submitted a very small number of the many corrections I made to the core, maybe 10%. I discovered submitting patches is very unproductive since it can takes several weeks before they are reviewed. Often, they are no even required when time comes to review them. Next, I asked to make the corrections directly to SVN, starting with small things without any major impact in the inner workings (small corrections to make the Admin panel and the output xHTML compliant, for instance). No answer to this day. So, there is no point for me to submitting more elaborate patches. The only thing that seems to work is to nag punctually some developer, at the right moment, when, by chance, he's working on the same portion of the code.
We appreciate all of our users, and try to answer as many questions, and provide the best support possible, but please keep in mind we have families, responsibilities and jobs.  We welcome your input, and try to keep ontop of our various projects, but it isn't always possible.
Keep in mind we also have families, responsibilities and, some of us, are also competent programmers, willing to contributed our valuable time to relieve you from the small details. But, because the way you insist approving every single little details - everything has to go trough your hands, no matter how small and insignificant- , it often not possible to free you time and let you work on more important aspects of the project.
Thank you for your continuing support.
Thank you for all you have done. But, now that the project has grown, it's time for the team to grow also.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:31 am
by tsw
So suggestions on what should be done for modules that are abandoned?

We are more than willing to take new devs and more so to have more people to work on modules.

Maybe modules that are abandoned should be taken over by people who have time to work with them now.

If someone wants to take over a module, please email current module developer and ask for permission to continue their work. if there is no reply please tell us and we'll handle it.

best place to talk about these is the chat (preferably when Ted is around as he will make the changes).

@Mahjong:

I feel the same as calguy, I do know you are a volunteer and have done great work. Still griping about other peoples work isn't something I enjoy reading. Its sad that NamantH doesn't have time to work with bookmarks module now, but as we don't know why I for one wont be blaming him.

And as I am in a similar situation right now (more and more work piling up with cmsms as I just don't have the time) I feel for him and do not wish that the first thing he is going to read on the forum when he gets back is griping about his work.


So lets all just get along and enjoy this project as we should. After all cmsms is extra work that most of us just enjoys working with.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 7:42 pm
by mahjong
So suggestions on what should be done for modules that are abandoned?
  • Non working modules or long overdue for an update should be flag officially as inactive projects and moved to a special section in the Forge. This way, it will be clear for users they shouldn't expect anything from those abandoned modules. Less complaints.
  • A call for volunteers posted on the forums to continue development.
If you want I can make a list of abandoned modules.
Maybe modules that are abandoned should be taken over by people who have time to work with them now.
Not maybe, automatically. Modules that are abandoned should be systematically taken over by people willing to work on them. A lot of talents are wasted while everybody is waiting for a single person to admit s/he unavailable or simply not interested any more.
If someone wants to take over a module, please email current module developer and ask for permission to continue their work. if there is no reply please tell us and we'll handle it.
There is where I disagree. With the actual work flow, everything gets into a halt when a single developer becomes unavailable for whatever reason : lost of interest, too much work, not enough time, or any other personal reasons. Instead, a system should be in place so, while programmers are enthusiastic and fresh, there should be no obstacle for them to join a project. Priority should be given to the people ready and willing to work now, not to the people tired and/or unavailable.
best place to talk about these is the chat (preferably when Ted is around as he will make the changes).
Sorry, but if you require people to join the discuss every single matter in real time, you are effectively asking them to be available exclusively when Ted is on line, which is counter-productive and impractical:
  • if you are in another time zone
  • if you cannot use chat while at work because of company policy
  • if you have difficulties typing fast, or writing convincing message because English is not your first language
You'll get a lot more done, if you separate decision making from the execution of tasks. The idea, as CMSMS becomes bigger, is to free directors and project managers to let them elaborate policies and supervise teams, not to nag them with an increasing number of low level execution details. To relieve the pressure, you need to spread user's requests over more shoulders, not concentrate them on Ted. It's time to subdivide the basic functions into small teams headed by directors.
I feel the same as calguy, I do know you are a volunteer and have done great work. Still griping about other peoples work isn't something I enjoy reading. Its sad that NamantH doesn't have time to work with bookmarks module now, but as we don't know why I for one wont be blaming him.

And as I am in a similar situation right now (more and more work piling up with cmsms as I just don't have the time) I feel for him and do not wish that the first thing he is going to read on the forum when he gets back is griping about his work.
I understand. You have taken too much on your shoulders, so much, sometimes it feels like you became slaves to CMSMS. Your life overlaps so much CMSMS, you take every single message about CMSMS personally, even the ones that are not meant to criticize your work (for instance, this thread addressed to NamantH). You would like to vent some frustrations, be angry or even cry, but you are too tired for that and you know it's no use; you have so much left to do. You don't count the sacrifices you already made. You have a mission and will finish it, no matter what. You only wish users were less ungrateful. You feel so tired...

Those are typical symptoms of a burn-out.

By the way, it wouldn't hurt if you officially, not only stopped development, but also forced tired developers to take a real vacation by forbidding them to work on CMSMS for a few weeks.

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Mon Dec 18, 2006 9:44 pm
by tsw
If you want I can make a list of abandoned modules.
please do
Modules that are abandoned should be systematically taken over by people willing to work on them.
There must be some control over who is taking over what project, it cant be all free. And we cant know if someone wants to work on a module if they wont tell it.
there should be no obstacle for them to join a project.
I agree, still we cant step on people toes by giving all people access to change stuff.

atm, if module is abandoned and someone asks to join the project we have given the rights for those who want it. But it does mean one needs to ask for them. I for one haven't yet found a working crystal orb to tell me things.
Sorry, but if you require people to join the discuss every single matter in real time,
ok, email works too ;)
Those are typical symptoms of a burn-out.
tell me about it ;)
By the way, it wouldn't hurt if you officially, not only stopped development, but also forced tired developers to take a real vacation by forbidding them to work on CMSMS for a few weeks.
its hard to say no when you are a workaholic ;)


From now on anyone who asks to join to be a module dev on a clearly abandoned module and sends me email / pm / talks to me in irc will have developer rights on that module in reasonable time. (assuming I'm still on a working condition. just kidding, things aren't that bad for me (yet) ;)

Re: Bookmarks Suggestions thread

Posted: Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:36 am
by mahjong
please do
Perfect. I'll send you the list as soon as possible.
There must be some control over who is taking over what project
Of course.

There is one problematic scenario right now. If a volunteer contacts the administrator of an abandoned module, s/he will never receive an answer. And, seems to me, you don't know about it either. Is there a way for you to monitor unanswered requests or redirect them to active members?