Some General Principles

[calguy1000]

One important underlying assumption I've learned exists with cms ms is that it assumes web designers use css for page layout -- and of course cms ms program development is based on this underlying assumption. I can program, and and my wife is a self taught graphic designer, but only uses wysiwyg layout. I have tweaked css but not done css layout before. In researching how, I found this very useful link: http://www.htmldog.com/guides/cssadvanced/layout/ . Hope that helps orient some others and save frustrations.

CMS Made Simple doesn't get in the way of using a table based layout (though it's discouraged, the standard is to use tables only for tabular data like reports) so that you can take advantage of different media types in the stylesheets, accessibility things, and have a flexible, re-usable layout....  if you don't want to use CSS based layout, it's simple.  about 2 minutes worth of work....  but it's not a great idea.  if youre fixed on table based layouts I think you have alot of learning to do.  Would you layout your 40 page word document in tables for each page/

[calguy1000]

I correct myself..... it's not 2 minutes work.... you can setup a table template just the same as a css based template.... or you could set up each page independantly if you want..... CMS doesn't care.... it's just that CSS based layouts with , id's classes, etc is more professional.... and CMS tries to make that easy.

[WebbyMom]

So..... as CMS is not designed for 'website noobs' for a number of reasons I've already gone in to.... it's designed for web designers, web developers, and power users..... I would say that the smarty manual is 'required reading'

Thanks for noting this so emphatically, Calguy. (No I'm serious.  LOL)  I'm a very happy user of CMSms but have been wondering how to do "certain things" and I'm not a programmer by any means (although I learned the "basics" back in high school with the BASIC language...  LOL). Coming to the forums to search for some hints on an aspect of my current project, I've landed here in this thread first, and so now I think I really need to go read more about Smarty and dig my fingers into the dirt, so-to-speak, before asking any questions. 

You do have an amazing product here. I've managed to make three different templates very easily and amazingly quickly by simply copying an existing template and then tweaking and changing the styles and whatnot. I'm pretty proficient in CSS/XHTML and most of that other stuff you mentioned, and I'm appreciating the lovely layout of the code behind the scenes so that the user can quickly get up to speed on what's happening where in the templates and CSS.

And just so you know - when I personally read the blurb on the front page about how easy it was to use, I read it with "developer's/designer's eyes" and it sold me. It did occur to me that if a real noob came along and read it, they might be persuaded it was something it was not - but I've mucked about with so many CMS's by now that it seemed I was in the frame of mind to read it the way it was intended - for those who are not quite so noob.    As it is, it has delivered on every promise for me thus far, and I'm not even interested in looking for "something better" anymore.

All that to say that I think you're marketing direction/ideas above are spot on. 

[rab]

I respectfully disagree - not with Calguy's position that CMSms support should be focussed on designers, developers and programmers, but with the inferred assumption that support for newbies should, therefore, be ignored.

I'll repeat what I said earlier - the sales message on the CMSms homepage is certainly not targeted to developers. I mean does "Use it to make a home page for your family..." sound like something that would entice a developer to dive right in? And isn't it just a tad misleading to say "No question is too stupid to be asked!" if you're promoting a policy of only responding to "non-stupid" questions? In essence, CMSms is attracting newbies with their sales message, then driving them away with "it's actually not all that easy" and "we don't really want to help you very much" support.

My point is, CMSms can't afford to drive them away! Let's face it, most open source projects suffer from the same problems - insufficient people, time, motivation and money - and the truly successful ones all share the same thing - a large user base. In fact, that is arguably the most critical ingredient of success. It's a simple numbers game - the more users you have, the more people, time, motivation and, yes, money that become available for more programming, more support, more addon modules, more documentation, more everything. So, while I would argree with Calguy that his support team members' efforts should be focussed on the developers' issues, I would also strongly encourage an aggressive support program targeted specifically to the newbies, because that's where you're going to get the numbers.

I said a while back in this thread that I was disappointed that CMSms was not as simple and easy as I thought, so decided to check out the other Packt winners (Drupal and Joomla) to see what they looked like. Well, I did and I learned a lot ...  and I'm back. I now know that CMSms is indeed a much simpler, faster and easier way to build a website - and it just needs to be a little more "newbie friendly" to convince the world of this fact.

As I mentioned before, Zen Cart has a great Beginner's Manual for their e-commerce system, and Drupal has a good "Getting Started" document with their Drupal Cookbook. Drupal also has a very nice person (Nancy something) who seems to be the "Newbie Welcome Wagon" and was extremely helpful in guiding me through Drupal's foggy processes. NOTE: A few email exchanges with Nancy told me in one day about Drupal what it took me well over 2 weeks to find out about CMSms.

So, I would propose that CMSms establish a Newbie Welcome Wagon with:
1) a beginner's manual
2) a Nancy to answer tirekickers' questions and "reel them in"
3) a dedicated newbie support team (perhaps made up of current advanced newbies)

When I left, I also promised that if I came back, I would do whatever I can to help newbies better understand CMSms basics and become more proficient utilizing them.  I don't know enough about CMSms to pretend to want to be its Nancy or Support Team, but I think I can help put together a reasonable first draft of a Beginner's Manual.

How about you?

[cyberman]

I can help put together a reasonable first draft of a Beginner's Manual.

Feel free to post some suggestions what we have to add to our wiki

http://wiki.cmsmadesimple.org/index.php/Main_Page

[calguy1000]

Rab.... I would agree with you 100% if we had the resources to support your ideas..... unfortunately we don't.

We don't have the people to be a 'dedicated noob support group'.... we have trouble getting support team members now.  Writing a beginners doc, we just don't have anybody for this.  Our documentation team is almost non-existant.... right now we're just trying to get people to contribute to the wiki... and this isn't happenning very fast.

I know it's a 'chicken and egg' thing.... but unfortunately, we can't do it.  If we had enough people to dedicate to babysitting the noobs that our regular support people could support the website designers/developers, then everybody could move on to doing more things (programming).  So, until we get some more people that can dedicate time to support and documentation like Pierre, RonnyK, Reneh, Mark, Cyberman, and others have there's little we can do.

As an aside: Experience tells me that users don't read documentation, especially noobs.... hell they can't even read a forum that says 'READ ME FIRST'..... they expect to have their hands held through each menu option and each line of the template or css that they change, and essentially have you build their website for them.  This is a level of support that we cannot provide.

[hj]

I've read this thread with great interest - I only found CMSMS a few days ago after someone at ExpressionEngine mentioned them. I needed a CMS where you can link between 'pages' (to use a metaphor) from run-of-text links. CMSMS did this in a fashion, EE didn't.

So here I am at CMSMS...and within a couple of days, using a standard template with a few CSS tweaks here and there, I've got the bones of a CMS system which will do what I want. However, this ONLY happened because I know a little about web design/development and was prepared to burn the midnight oil learning and understanding the relationship between stylesheets and templates and so on. Fair enough, it seems everyone has to make an investment of time! And before I go on, let me just say I'm damned glad I found CMSMS.

But Calguy, I agree with Rab 100% - the sales pitch and 'assumptions' are all wrong! Your main message says 'make a home page for the family', and then your features section plug things like blogs and photo albums etc. It's a dead cert to hook the noobs! And I think it does it quite well. But retain them....? I'd say the chances are pretty slim.

'Simple' is indeed a relative term.  But you do a good job of making it absolute by peddling the 'family home page', blog and picture album stuff! Even the cutesy palm tree logo lends a 'kiddy' quality to the appeal. It "positions" your product in peoples' minds. If you think it's the wrong position, change the sales message. If you feel it's the right position, then cater to the noob as Rab says.

The POWER of half of these CMS products, (and 'power' is a word you all love to use!), is sadly accessible only to a relative few. NOT because it's such rocket science that we bumblers couldn't understand, but because we're not shown any path to wisdom and understanding.  It's like being seduced through a nice little cottage doorway with roses round it, only to find yourself in a busy airport concourse without any signs Scary!

Don't get me wrong, there's stacks of good information at CMSMS and helpful people aplenty. And there's an online manual which, even if incomplete, is better than many. But it's neither cohesive nor coherent, and a noob would certainly baulk at it all.

And yet, with a little patience and guidance, CMSMS is quite useable by a noob....who could then go on to greater things with it

I concur with Rab 100%, and repeat again his 'Holy Trinity'...
1) a beginner's manual
2) a Nancy to answer tirekickers' questions and "reel them in"
3) a dedicated newbie support team (perhaps made up of current advanced newbies)

You complain that you don't have the resources, the people. But you probably already have them! (...and note that Rab was also offering!)  CMSMS is a sufficiently robust product that it's not going to miss a bit of a code development for a few months. Move people from technical to marketing. Move people from coding to writing manuals. Design and structure a simple 'introductory programme', two or three simple, graphical attractive and concise but painstakingly accurate tutorials. Produce 'standards' for template designs so that the import and useage procedure for "themes" is consistent. Check the interface for consistency and ease of use. Improve the manual - and make it available as a downloadable PDF. Task someone with getting choice advice from the forums and putting it into an 'end solution' knowledgebase. Basically, get off the technical horse for a while and get on the marketing one. I think you have a great product but its light is being hidden under a rather scraggy bushel at the moment!

I'm not a power user. I'm not a coder. I understand the minimal of html and css (and, ps, I'm one of the millions of Dreamweaver type web site authors!!). I know nothing about Smarty. Yet I can still use (and even sense the 'power') of CMCMS. It would be a shame to lose me....wouldn't it?

Rab - be happy to help with a beginners' manual if you wanted to share some thoughts. With CMSMS blessing, of course.

Hugh
UK

[rab]

Hi Hugh,

Thanks for the offer to help! I'm in the process of finishing one and developing another CMSMS site, and thought the best way to create a usable manual would be to document step-by-step what I did to build my site(s). So I'm now just taking notes on what I've learned so far as I stumble along. Maybe you could do the same?

Eventually, I would hope to be able to put a beginner's manual together based on some current CMSMS documentation plus our own step-by-step notes. I'm doing everything in Word because, being old fashioned I guess, I would want to have a hardcopy of any Beginner's Manual I found, and I never figured out a way to print out the Wiki documentation without copy-and-pasting each page (which, BTW, I did!).

So, in terms of an outline, I guess something like this:

1. Install CMSMS
2. Install modules
3. Learn about templates and stylesheets
4. Set up site structure
5. Start building pages
6. Discuss the various modules/tags used
7. Talk a little about Smarty, PHP, etc.
8. Support tips - how to use forums, etc.

Instead of continuing this in the forum, you can email me (rab at practicaloptions dot net). Take a look at my first CMSMS site, too, at mylaxteam.org. Hey, I guess 2 makes a team, so maybe we can actually get this thing started!

[hj]

Good to hear from you, Rab.

I'll be in touch directly. But before going too far down this road (being busy with work and play, anyway!), it would be good to know from the powers-that-be that there is a general agreement/acceptance of the fundamental points we are both making.  Otherwise anything we do might be 'lost in space'.

To be honest, if you're not too far down the line, I'd just take a step back first and consider the beginner's manual within a wider remit of understanding and using CMSMS. A beginners manual is vital, but it needs to be 'connected' to whatever else is going on or being put in place (the general 'philosophy' if you like). Maybe a bit of planning first?

There's not a great deal of point unless the project owners are heading in the same direction!

regards
Hugh

[Pierre M.]

I concur with Rab 100%, and repeat again his 'Holy Trinity'...
1) a beginner's manual
2) a Nancy to answer tirekickers' questions and "reel them in"
3) a dedicated newbie support team (perhaps made up of current advanced newbies)

You complain that you don't have the resources, the people. But you probably already have them! (...and note that Rab was also offering!)  CMSMS is a sufficiently robust product that it's not going to miss a bit of a code development for a few months. Move people from technical to marketing. Move people from coding to writing manuals. Design and structure a simple 'introductory programme', two or three simple, graphical attractive and concise but painstakingly accurate tutorials. Produce 'standards' for template designs so that the import and useage procedure for "themes" is consistent. Check the interface for consistency and ease of use. Improve the manual - and make it available as a downloadable PDF. Task someone with getting choice advice from the forums and putting it into an 'end solution' knowledgebase. Basically, get off the technical horse for a while and get on the marketing one. I think you have a great product but its light is being hidden under a rather scraggy bushel at the moment!

(...)
Rab - be happy to help with a beginners' manual if you wanted to share some thoughts. With CMSMS blessing, of course.

Welcome Hugh, welcome rab,

please have a look at the documentation board of the forum. Since january 2008 a new documentation team is concentrating on new doc issues. May be you would like to join that team ? Or at least submit your suggestions to the team.

Have fun with CMSms !

Pierre M.

[rab]

Hi Pierre,

Yes, I posted a similar message to the Documentation forum a couple of weeks ago. So far, haven't heard from anyone.

Thanks for the guidance.

[pixelita]

@CalGuy1000...
Don't forget to mention, when talking about CMSMS, the power of the User Defined Tags and Global Content Blocks.  Those are two keys to CMSMS happiness .. in my world anyway.

[kendo451]

With the exception of the directories that must be writable (tmp, uploads, etc) what is the strongest permission setting that will still allow the CMSMS to work?  chmod 444?

[calguy1000]

That depends on your environment....  There is no simple answer to that question, because it depends on the environment that you're working within.

And don't let anybody tell you differently, because sooner or later they will be wrong. 

Your best choice is to spend some time, do some reading, do some research, and learn and UNDERSTAND everything about the problem.... not learn the quick solution for this time, because it may not be the answer for the next time when you don't have any available help.

[Izal]

Rab.... I would agree with you 100% if we had the resources to support your ideas..... unfortunately we don't.

We don't have the people to be a 'dedicated noob support group'.... we have trouble getting support team members now.  Writing a beginners doc, we just don't have anybody for this.  Our documentation team is almost non-existant.... right now we're just trying to get people to contribute to the wiki... and this isn't happenning very fast.

I know it's a 'chicken and egg' thing.... but unfortunately, we can't do it.  If we had enough people to dedicate to babysitting the noobs that our regular support people could support the website designers/developers, then everybody could move on to doing more things (programming).  So, until we get some more people that can dedicate time to support and documentation like Pierre, RonnyK, Reneh, Mark, Cyberman, and others have there's little we can do.

As an aside: Experience tells me that users don't read documentation, especially noobs.... hell they can't even read a forum that says 'READ ME FIRST'..... they expect to have their hands held through each menu option and each line of the template or css that they change, and essentially have you build their website for them.   This is a level of support that we cannot provide.

And I disagree 100000000% because unless your willing to baby sit, your not going to develop a base of noobs that are willing to help in the forum to help fellow noobs.

A negative outstart is a negative follow through and you end up in a situation where your forum is littered with lots of requests for information that just is ignored and image wise that is the same as unloading both barrels of a shot gun in to your feet. You will never walk or run...

So if any attitude change is needed, it is of those who are currently baby sitting the forum, the developers and Ted Kulp himself.

Why don't people read the Read ME? WHY? Because there down right patronizing 99% of the time, laying down idiotic rules about how your required to post a whole load of guff about your current install... Well perhaps if people were to look at this through newbie eyes, they might be able to see just how overwhelming something can be when you are trying to struggle to learn something. No one is expected in the real world to cope with taking everything in, in one go, that is just not possible.

If someone has no idea about a product, expect stupid or seemingly stupid questions but don''t forget that to the person posting, they are reasonable and logical questions to ask and when they learn something, they pass that information on or not... depending upon the experience the noob gets.

If your struggling to get new blood, perhaps the old blood needs to evaluate a strategy to turn it around and maybe CMS MS forum apprenticeships where you recruit noobs and train them up to answer low-tech boring crap that seems to get ignored. Perhaps if Ted is not too busy on twatter telling the world hes gone gone for a number 2 or buying a CAT5 cable, maybe he can offer support to a group of trainees as he has after all created this CMS system.

What ever you do, attitudes need to change a newbie may be new to the site but until you can be bothered to find out how much experience that person has you have no idea if that person is a time served MCP or not, just because someone spends 20 or 30 years on a field does not automatically make them an expert in other computing fields. A friend of min worked in the computer memory business and knows memory inside out yet struggles to even make a HTML page.

As for reading and learning, if the wiki is not happening and your noob asks a question, how on earth do you expect people to get on and use your product? If the information is readily available, then people are often willing to read when the option is presented and thats because most people do not want to appear stupid, if you can not find what your looking for and you ask for help, what's the problem with simply presenting the person with the information or where to get that information form? BUT even then, it takes additional support for some things that just don't click first time. So if someone asks questions, answer them.

Have I got my point across or are devs here going to take it all the wrong way, which tends to happen when I offer a critical overview of things. I have lurked on this site for a while before joining up as did a friend who recently told me of his experience here and I can tell you that first thing he did was go elsewhere for his CMS, I on the other hand am prepared to stick it out and claw the information out of the devs if needed. What I can not get over is that you do have an attitude issue in the forum that needs tending to and nothing is done about it and I can say that your team need to start focusing on building foundations, those foundations are the new blood that your currently ignoring.

Key words to note... LEAD BY EXAMPLE. Unless you set the example, how can you lead?
* when I say  "you" I am not specifically referring to calguy, I am referring to you all in general.