Tabular Layout Scheme/Template?

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:39 pm

Hi,

I would like to use a tabular layout (please, no discussions about tables vs. pure CSS, I have my reasons for wanting a tabled design).

Looking at the basic templates (apparently they all are depending on/named by which menu style one uses?), this should be possible simply by dropping the html into the template and correctly placing the tags for content where it should appear? Anyone tried it already?

Greetings

M.

calguy1000 · Post by **calguy1000** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 6:26 pm

As well, if you're using the 0.12 beta, when you create a new template, some default, basic content is prepared for you, that is independant of all of the sample stylesheets.

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:30 pm

Hi,

hmmm... where exactly are the templates located?

Greetings

M.

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Mon Feb 06, 2006 8:17 pm

Hi again,

I solved the background of the above question, but now I have a couple of more serious problems.

I can't seem to call on any but the most basic menus, as soon as I enter a qualification (like collapse='1') or call the horizontal menu of Ellnav I get error messages.

I work with a copied version of the Ellnav template I want to use, haven't yet attached any stylesheet and am just trying to get the basic html working. I figured out where to put the images and how to call them, but this stumps me. Apart from the main template, what else do I have to modify so that it can be called?

Also - I'd like to use Pimenu (as the site eventually has to be multilingual), how do I use that? I installed the plugin, but now am at a loss as to how to use it.

Greetings

M.

PS: I have the latest stable version installed.

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:31 pm

Hi again,

no takers?

Greetings

M.

kermit · Post by **kermit** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:52 am

a basic 3 column tables layout ::shudder::

Code: Select all

<__html>

<head>
<title>{title}</title>
{stylesheet}
</head>

</__body>
<table border="0" width="770" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" id="thepage">
	<tr>
		<td colspan="2" align="center" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Header Graphic</td>
		<td align="center" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">Something</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td colspan="2" align="left" bgcolor="#C0C0C0"><div id="menu_horiz"><div id="wrapper">{cms_module module='EllNav' horizontal=1 toponly=1}</div></div></td>
		<td align="left" bgcolor="#C0C0C0">Alt Links</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td colspan="2" align="left" bgcolor="#999999"><div class="breadcrumbs">{breadcrumbs delimiter='»' initial='1'}</div></td>
		<td align="left" bgcolor="#999999">Alt Links</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td width="175" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF"><div id="menu_vert">{cms_module module='EllNav' cssid='leftmenu' showtoplevel=0}</div><br>{content block='block1'}</td>
		<td width="470" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">{content}</td>
		<td width="125" align="left" valign="top" bgcolor="#C0C0C0">{content block='block2'}</td>
	</tr>
	<tr>
		<td colspan="3" align="center" bgcolor="#999999">{html_blob name='footer'}</td>
	</tr>
</table>

<__body>
</__html>

i kept this simple and restricted to table structure and {tag} positioning only.

the menus need div's wrapped around them and stylesheets attached (vert/horiz/ellnav stylesheets) for them to work as expected.

if you want to use the colors, forms and typo stylesheets, you can attach those as well (or create your own). and obviously, the table cells need prettying up.

you can refer to any external files you want; either by full url like: or by path:

not familiar with pimenu. check the code comments or the help/about links in the module's listing in extensions->modules. you'll also find the options for stock menus in there too.

see http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/ for some ideas on formatting list-based menus (i like 'float your boat' for smaller sites).

if you dive into table-free layout, http://www.csscreator.com/version2/pagelayout.php can create a basic layout to your specs; and http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/ are some very well documented and flexible table-free layouts. http://www.openwebdesign.org and http://www.oswd.org are good sources for xhtml-compliant layouts to learn & get ideas from.

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 6:24 am

Hi again,

nope, this (3-column-table) unfortunately doesn't even come close to what I have in mind.

I had wrapped the menus in divs where I placed them, and still got the error. I also had basic style attached (just not tuned to the site), as I didn't change anything in the template but place the html in it. So I wonder why I get this error.

As to your shudder

and suggestions for CSS, I'm afraid until ALL browsers have agreed on a common and same way to process CSS (or process it at all), CSS for more than just colors and sizes is entirely out of my book of things I will use. I can generate html (without major hacks) which works in practically all browsers including most dated versions and looks reasonably close, whereas CSS layouts still are a box full of fleas (just look at those many many problems with either FF or IE here in the board - and that's just the two major Windows browsers) even with the most intricate hacks for compliance.

The userbase for the site I'm currently planning is backwards in browser choice and use by at least 5-10 years, their computers are mostly outdated by at least 5 years and as long as they work when switched on, these people won't change them. They aren't geeks and they aren't rich. They nearly all pay dearly per minute for their online time (I talk about prices of 3-6 $$ per hour with an average income of not more than 200-300 $$ per month after taxes) and they go online by modem. For them something as simple as setting up a mailclient other than what ships with the computer already is a major obstacle. So any suggestion to get a better computer or browser is hugely arrogant and a slap to their faces.

That some webdesigners need to create content for such user groups (practically most of Central Asia, Asia and Africa currently) seems to be one of the most often forgotten facts by software designers and style/standards discussion groups who don't think twice where it comes to online time, newest hardware and downloading for compliance with modern software. However, all it takes to know and understand is one close look into such a website's server log...

Greetings

M.

kermit · Post by **kermit** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:34 am

the benefits of css over table design would be huge in your particular implementation.

that aside, the bulletmenu is the only (stock) one that has the 'collapse' parameter you mentioned (cssmenu and ellnav's help pages make no mention of it).

without actually seeing the template code you're trying to use, it will be hard to pinpoint where your difficulties are coming from.

Mnementh · Post by **Mnementh** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 3:49 pm

Hi again,

when I say table-based and html, then I assure you, that this is what I mean

I'll not attach needless CSS to anything, if I can help it, when I code pure html. What the heavens for should I do that?

ANY pure html page without needless calls for style and stylesheet is faster than a pure CSS driven page of equal content. With CMS which work with (exclusively) either (e.g. Typo) you can easily check that fact. And by the way, many older browsers quite simply don't read CSS, don't cache it, don't correctly display it and tend to hang and crash if confronted with it.

I'm NOT talking about disabled people here, none of those people are in the least disabled. The site is not even meant to be used by disabled people, so why do people keep throwing that at someone who expressly wishes for basic pure html, I wonder?

I'm talking about people who have to do with 386 or 486 comps running win95 or win98 at best, with IE4 or Netscape4, or age-old Macs with equally old Safari. Try any pure CSS site with one of those and dear me, your eyes will cross. Strip the CSS from this here site, and they'll do too.

Unfortunately CMSMS isn't capable of a no-CSS-layout as maintained on the start page, as I see now after further testing with an empty CSS-page attached and your basic tags inserted. Too bad, it appeared to be quite interesting in the beginning. But I have to cater to these users with the site, and not some imaginary people with hightech hard- and software, so I better keep looking

Thanks anyway for your friendly help

Greetings

M.

kermit · Post by **kermit** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:30 am

Patricia wrote:
Mnementh wrote: Unfortunately CMSMS isn't capable of a no-CSS-layout
if you remove {stylesheet} from your template, it will not call any CSS

imagine digging through the code to add html-style inline tags for formatting & styling to generated output though. yikes.

kermit · Post by **kermit** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 11:17 am

i have clients and friends that would really raise a stink if any local sites i do weren't useable by them.. blind (or nearly so), mobility impared, etc. there are laws here (s508 and others, including some case law) that apply to many types of sites, and even if they didn't, this is america and any corporation likely could be sued if their web site wasn't accessible.

(what's really sad is that http://www.section508.gov/ the web site that preaches the law, uses, ummm. errr. tables. sheesh).

even if laws don't apply, an accessible web site is still the way to go... by making a web site accessible, chances are you also end up using valid xhtml and css, proper document structure, and avoid those bad, bad layout tables, so it's a win win win for everyone.

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