New Forum "The Wasteland"

[calguy1000]

Because of the controversy, angst, and problems that arise from deleting posts, we're gonna try something different.

Any post that doesn't follow forum rules will now be moved into 'The Wasteland'.  A new forum.

New posts are not allowed here
Neither are replies.
You can't even delete your own post once it's moved here.

So if you're post moves here, you know why.

[SimonSchaufi]

You can't even delete your own post once it's moved here.

why???

[calguy1000]

Simply, it's a training exercise.

We need to teach users to spend some time, and do some research, and explain their questions well.  just deleting posts doesn't seem to do it.

By making the posts public, and preventing users from deleting them we
a) provide examples of what not to do
b) show people why we need to be so... demanding.

If people are really concerned, they can always PM an authorized moderator to delete the post.

[Pierre M.]

Hello,

I discover "The Wasteland" and I think it is a interesting idea. Because sometimes, along with "reply", "quote", "delete", "fork"... I wish the forum had other "action buttons" with automatically preformated replies :

-This is not CMSms specific. Please ask (Microsoft|MySQL|Apache|your hosting provider|Google)'s support.

-You don't even tell the CMSms version you are using. Please read the sticky posts "how to ask..." (ie "Don't waste our time reading your useless post")

-Are you sure you have read the (install|moving|enhancing) guide ? Or the links in them ? (known as "RTFM")

-Please elaborate more on the context (anything strange in http logS... how to reproduce precisely...) to help us narrow the issue.

Have fun all with CMSms

Pierre

[Sonya]

I do not like this idea or how it is realized  . It's just my opinion and not a try to pounce.

Some reasons: I am a kind of person who always forgets to name CMSMS version, not because I am lazy, and not because lack of respect and not because I have not read the rules. Just forget. Mostly I edit my posts afterwards if I see that something is missed. But generally I am unorganized and chaotic.  I would not like to be punished for my nature The best way to understand that something is wrong with my question is to see my topic ignored.

If my question is incomprehensible - it should be ignored. If my question is placed in wrong board - it should be moved (I do not think that someone deliberately place their quesiton in wrong boards mostly simple mistake). If my question doesn't provide the information needed for solving the problem - it *can* be ignored or answered (up to forum members).

For newbie it is really difficult to figure out whether the specific problem deals with CMSMS, Apache, MySQL... It is not simple for somebody who does not involved into development to figure out what module is and what is the core. Sometimes it is even difficult to find correct definitions to describe the problem if you are not native speaker and/or do not have technical background. In the latter case only discussion can help to figure out the problem and solve it.

I know it's bothersome to deal with newbies, but not all of them try to annoy you. They just cannot do it better (initially) but they can learn if they are guided and can - who know? - probably help other newbies some months later.

[cmstester]

This is not the right way to deal with the situation. It creates anger and bitterness and is an aggressive response to a simple issue. There's a reason forums have moderators. If you can't handle doing your job then find someone else to do it. Don't spend yuor days trying to piss off new visitors and new people to the CMS. It's not very welcoming when you automatically create feelings of bitterness.

[Pierre M.]

Hello,

I think there is a bright side in CMSms forums management today with or without "The Wasteland" : the forums are usefull, answers are given, issues are solved, "The Wasteland" is almost empty, the signal to noise ratio is healthy ...because the forums are ruled, managed, moderated and community intercontributions are welcome.

Free manpower and spare time are scare resources hence productivity must retain under control. I find it a fair deal to take time to follow the rules to ask people to take time to answer.

Bright side, have fun !

Pierre M. (member of the support team)

[calguy1000]

@cmstester

This is not the right way to deal with the situation. It creates anger and bitterness and is an aggressive response to a simple issue. There's a reason forums have moderators. If you can't handle doing your job then find someone else to do it. Don't spend yuor days trying to piss off new visitors and new people to the CMS. It's not very welcoming when you automatically create feelings of bitterness.

How about not pissing off the people that could possibly give you help by not making them waste their time?  too many people think that their time is more valuable than ours.  This was only your second post, so you probably haven't been here long enough to realize that I spend a fair bit of time here trying to help people.

@Sonya

I understand that some times people forget, or are in too much of a hurry, and make mistakes.... and that is fine, but some people make a habit of it.  And then if we do ignore their posts, they repeatedly bump the post or post remarks that the support sucks.  Some people just don't care, or think that their time is more valuable than anybody elses, or get irritated that they have to follow a few simple rules.  There has to be a better solution than that.

Also, this package is not necessarily for noobs.... it's for experienced web development professionals that want a simple to use solution.  We don't mind noobs using the package, but we're not necessarily going to support them. and they should post a well worded, well thought out, and well researched question if they do post. We've discussed this at length. 

I have moved many posts, ignored even more, and deleted some.  I use constraint as a moderator... Unlike some forums, where the slightest infraction can get you banned.  We try to be better.

The wasteland, and the forum rules, and the changes we've made in the site content are an attempt to find the middle ground and to illustrate who this product is for, so we don't get the stupid idiot questions like 'how do I create a database' or 'how do I change the background color of text',  to instruct people as to what we expect out of them if they want help. and it also illustrates that we didn't ignore them.  We also want to keep the 'signal to noise ratio' relatively high, so that there is actually a reason to read these forums. 

Our next solution will probably be to implement some 'canned' responses to posts, but this won't do any good either, and will probably frustrate just as many people.

This is not a new problem, or a simple one. 

And it's pretty bad when the project leader, the guy that pays for the bandwidth, and other senior programmers that can really help with this forum rarely come in here to help with support issues anymore because they view it as a 'wasteland'.    If we open the forum wide open, and don't have some kind of moderation, in just a little bit of time, I'll bet you'll find that the real experienced people will go elsewhere.

So my opinion is, if you want real help with the product, then just follow a few rules. 

[Sonya]

Pierre M.
support team does here great job without doubt. And I am really thankful to all here who read my confusing questions and help to refine and to solve my problems.

I find it a fair deal to take time to follow the rules to ask people to take time to answer.

But I see the problem in just moving topics and do not even give the possibility to answer. If I were newbie I would surely get rattled after such action and will never aks again without really knowing what I have made wrong

Generally I can understand that it is annoying to see and to ask the same questions again and again. But as woman and addicted to harmony I would do it nevertheless.

[Sonya]

I understand that some times people forget, or are in too much of a hurry, and make mistakes.... and that is fine, but some people make a habit of it.  And then if we do ignore their posts, they repeatedly bump the post or post remarks that the support sucks.

that is unfair. I did not consider the possibility that people turn the tables and remark support instead of remark their own way to question. 

And it's pretty bad when the project leader, the guy that pays for the bandwidth, and other senior programmers that can really help with this forum rarely come in here to help with support issues anymore because they view it as a 'wasteland'.

I do not want developers to come rarely. If the Wasteland the only way to keep them in forum I will vote for Wasteland

But I would not move the topics from fresh registered users with only 1 post there. I would give them a kind of welcome bonus . Just to give a chance to make it right. And apply the rule only to the members who do not follow the rules although they are active members or if they do break the rules repeated.

[Dr.CSS]

Canned reply for post of noob, with limit of maybe 2 post, about how to post, then get moved to wasteland may be a work around...

[calguy1000]

Yeah, I wanted a moderation mechanism, where posts by new users would have to be 'approved' before they went live, until such time as the user was moved into another group or something.... but that functionality doesn't seem to exist.

Okay, howbout this.... we'll just move bad posts from people with say 15 or more posts to the wasteland.

I'm willing to compromise, and it is, as I say, a work in progress, and an attempt to solve the problem.

[calguy1000]

Some posts deleted.

Why: because it was degrading into an argument, that isn't suitable for these forums.

I also banned the user... 4 pots... 4 of them non constructive.

[calguy1000]

Okay, new tactic.

I had a discussion with Ted, and here's what I'm going to be doing for now.  It's kinda a compromize between what was discussed above and just arbitrarily moving posts.

Now, when somebody doesnt' post an intelligently worded, well researched, well thought out, and informative post as the first post on a new thread/question I will be reducing their karma (smiting them).... after they reach 3 or 4 bad smites, THEN I will be moving their bad posts to the wastelend.

This may hopefully give people a chance to fix a few things and learn to post questions that other people can answer without asking 'what is your CMS version? have you checked your httpd logs, which version of which module are you using, etc, etc"

Lets keep the signal to noise ratio high people.

Rude, obnoxious, or off topic posts can still be deleted.

[JeremyBASS]

I would like to just say one thing about this... There has been a few, only a few mind you, posts that at first seems to be CMSms related then took a trun that made it seem like it was not which got moved(thankfully not deleted) and then truned right back in to being CMSms related... All i'm driving at is that ... sometimes things are not always what the seem at first or better yet untill the very end...

a good example is
http://forum.cmsmadesimple.org/index.ph ... 564.0.html

the topic was based on the .htaccess files that were suggested here, which was up in the air if it was CMSms related fully... then it truned out that part of the solution was to eidt the config file... which made it a great fix for me and IMHO was totally related to CMSms...

I agree it sucks to try to help people when they are vag, but they may be vag as they are not sure... but mean poeple suck and such be spanked